Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

But having to or wanting to? Can't you identify any difference between the two? It just feels to me like you're taking a very narrow view on this.

In fact I think I should get off this thread. I'm tired and fed up and angry about lots of things and it's not helping me.

I haven't - I would be too embarrassed!
To me, it's something that I do with my class.
I do perform on stage, but the dances my troupe does are very unsexy - we're dancing for fun, not for sexual gratification.
we also dance at school fetes, so sexy dancing would be very out of order.

I never found a form of exercise that suited me before i found belly dancing.
in fact, all my life, i have hated exercise, and was in danger of becoming fat because of that.
belly dancing has strengthened my core body muscles, has made me stronger, and has improved my knees. (I'm a wimp who has alwas had weak knees, and also find it difficult to hold my arms up - so BD has helped with both of those things)

that's just revenge, Dittany, not feminism.

( and i do get where you're coming from - the patriarchy has ruined women, but it doesn't mean that we're better than them, especially if we're gong to the old Crusade route of getting on top of them)

Dittany , i think you are wrong on this.

I am a belly dancer . Its a very powerful way to dance...It involves embracing the way a womans body move naturally and exagerates it. Of course some people who think only of women as sexual tools for male use ,would have an expanded version of that thought when looking at a woman who is belly dancing.
It is not mearly a case of gyrating and disconnecting hip from rib-cage.There are as many fluid and gracefull movements in belly dancing as in ballet-dancing.
There are also many different styles of the art .Egyptian , tribal , (i do both),But there is also arabic , turkish ,modern and asian styles....all of which take many many years to learn and a lifetime to perfect.

Although the costumes may be elaborate and sparkly ( it appeals to thoe who loved dressing up as a child), it is by no means a neccesity to dance/perform semi- naked , in a bra and see through skirt.

Most of us wear simple leggings and a tee-shirt or lessons , with a shimmy/coin/bell belt or veils.

It also has the advantage of toning and maintaining a womans core muscles more effectively that sit ups ...I have a flat stomach ...i have also had 5 children ,the last pregnancy being twins. No problem with pelvic floors here either.

Lastly its the best cardio workout you will ever get, and its fun .

Its most definately not gyrating for men , not anymore than any other form of dance.

Anybody who wants to prove/disproves this can do so by joining their nearest belly dancing class and having a go themself.

i know that's what you mean, and what you want, but you said
"Feminism is about overthrowing the patriarchy "
"I don't want to be on a par with men by the way."
"Anything that combats or defeats the patriarchy is feminist."

that sounds like the only way you'll be happy with our lot is by completely reversing the standards - making it so women are in charge - almost punishing men for being in charge for so long.
the old Crusade route was my interpreation of that - the only way that christians could make christians in far off lands was by going to war with them.
the only way you can make women more powerful than men is by going to war with them.

i'm not saying you're wrong, i'm just saying, it's not going to work, and it's unreasonable.

But there's nothing particularly awful about putting on a sexual performance for someone you want to turn on in the privacy of your own home.

Although as I wrote that I tried to imagine a man putting on a sexual performance for me and it would be a joke, camp and ironic, rather than a turn on as it is when women do strip-teases for their lovers. Although having said that, when you are doing it in private, there's a lot of humour and laughing as well as deliberately turning someone on.

You've raised quite an interesting issue there Dittany. Men just don't perform that way for women, in that solely sexual titillating way. The Chippendales etc. are ironic, camp, all about humour aren't they.

Hmmmm. Must think further on this.

and ditto everything that droves just said.

HerBex - exactly.
saying you can't is like saying that you shouldn't get naked in front of the man yo uwant to turn on, because your body is naked naturally, and that would be exploiting it.

nbh I think your interpretation of what dittany is saying is wrong. As she says, what you are saying she is saying, is comign from what you think she's saying, not what she's saying.

(How many sayings in that )

Stick around on the feminism board and you'll find that feminists are saying something very different to waht you've been told they're saying.

iknow - but that's what comprehension is all about - someone says something, and the listener says "i think you're saying such and such"

i'm not saying that feminists say one particular thing, i just think that dittany's response then was quite typical of what a lot of people think we're saying.

(sorry, my interpretation of what she was saying!)

I'm a little fat middle-aged woman and I belly dance.
It's a lot of fun, good exercise and trust me, not erotic in any sense when I've got my shimmy on.
I wouldn't dream of dancing in mixed company, or with fit younger women who would most likely be hyper-critical of my lack of yumminess.
I don't think it's a feminist activity, it's just something I enjoy, like cooking.

"Feminism is the peaceful revolution. Every right women have won have been without shedding a single drop of male blood. You cannot say the same for the way men have achieved their power over us, they have enacted unthinkable, immeasurable amounts of violence against women."

i afully agree.

what i don't agree with is turning something that women do for themselves and for their bodies (be it belly dancing or quilting) and saying it's done for the pleasure of men.
that means we're going backwards in our own war!

I don't want to be seen as a bra-burning men-hating protagonist.
and i'm sure you don't either.

Belly dancing without a bra?
I don't think so...although I also exercise with poi.

if you're performing for a real or imagined male audience then it is for their pleasure, surely? this applies to all dance doesn't it?

sorry, dittany ,i didn't want to upset you.
I was upset by the comments you made, so I retaliated by saying that we're not waging a war.

yes, you're right, women and children were defenceless against the crusades, and against every war ever thought.
i know this is a different debate, but the ordinary solider also didn't have much of a choice in the matter....

and i was upset by being told i was an object to men's titilation, because I belly dance.