Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

[David51]

Unrulysun thats true but the issue with lapdancing is exploitation of the performers - and that is not I think the case with belly dancing

[madwomanintheattic]

i have a friend/acquaintance who put herself through cambridge on the back of 14 years of ballet lessons - as a podium dancer. she always laughs and says she's glad her mum paid out all the lesson fees, but it's not really how she envisaged they would be used.

[Unrulysun]

Well no David, that's one issue certainly but far from the only issue. There's a very real concern about the way that lap-dancing/stripping are about objectifying women and there are concerns about the way women's bodies are comodified and both of those things can be applied to belly dancing in the situation MWITA describes for example.

[ziptoes]

"Belly dancing" actually covers a whole range of styles of dance: Baladi = folk dance; Raqs Sharqi = classical dance etc. The dance can be done in a huge variety of costumes including full galabea. The sleazy style costume is thought to have originated in 1950s hollywood movies - in fact the jewel in the bellybutton was there to hide the navel, considered to risque for the 1950s.

Men also "belly dance", in fact it was seeing two men and a woman doing an impromptu dance together that inspired me to take up classes. Male dancers can be very masculine and aggressive - focussing on the upper body, or can be very camp - and some male belly dancers dance in drag.

Saying all belly dancing is sleazy is writing off a hugely rich and diverse art form.

[David51]

This may be heretical but I would question whether 'objectification' is actually the most important issue with lapdancing. The case against lapdancing has been built mainly on the testimony of women who took part of it & reported the sordid realities and the abuse they suffered. Nothing equivalent has happened with belly dancing and somehow I doubt if it will.

Watch out for my thread 'What's wrong with objectification?' - coming soon

[madwomanintheattic]

interesting point, david. but tbh anything that encourages male co-workers to believe that their female colleagues should strip off and jiggle for their benefit (because that's wot wimmin are for ,innit) isn't something i can get my head around, contextually. i'm deeply unhappy to be objectified in that context. if i was being objectified based on my work achievements rather than how much of a boner i could give some pissed up middle manager, i might be a bit happier.

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Fascinating thread. I have taken belly dancing lessons, and found it of sone help during labour.

It's interesting to read about its origins here - I too believed it was originally developed by women for women.

It is a beautiful and sensuous dance, which I found (as someone who's not naturally body-confident) that it helped me to value and enjoy the body that I have rather than hanker after the body I might wish I had.

[thumbwitch]

even if you take the objectification out of it, it's unprofessional to expect the women in the scenario given to change from their work role, which is how their male colleagues see them and should continue to see them, into a show girl of whatever type.

Perhaps the men should have been encouraged to join in the dance instead - see how they liked it.

Women have a hard enough time in male-dominated work environments without having their professional "hat" removed from them by their male colleagues.

[thumbwitch]

hey Speeedy!! Belly dancing is fab, isn't it? I loved it - did it while I was pg the first time for a bit until my ligaments started to protest under the strain

[SpeedyGonzalez]

David, are you joking? 'What's wrong with treating a person like an object? Can you not work it out for yourself?

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Dittany, sensuality is one aspect of the body. Strength is another - and for me as a naturally sporty person, that is an aspect which I've never had trouble valuing and enjoying. Which is one reason why I plan to train in Kung-Fu! ('tis true!)

Hi thumbs!!!

[David51]

SpeedyGonzalez You could argue that an artist treats a person like an object when they paint a portrait. Or that a woman treats herself like an object whenever she puts on make up.

So maybe it's a more complex issue than you think.

And dittany I'm raising the question because I am seriously interested in it. I realise the concept is central to feminism but it also generates disagreement between feminists. I support feminism by making an honest attempt to understand issues like this.

[madamh]

No, you don't need to belly-dance to value and enjoy your body, and I don't see anyone suggesting that you do, just as you don't need to row in order to do that. They're simply two of many different ways of achieving those results.

I took Egyptian dance classes for two years and at the end of the time I was, without doubt, in the best physical shape I've ever been in. I loved the music, was completely covered all the time (entirely my choice), hardly ever danced in front of anyone outside of the group, had a brilliant time and developed great strength, co-ordination, muscle awareness and stamina. I don't fancy rowing :)

[thumbwitch]

not at all David - artists use subjects in their painting of portraits, not objects. And they glorify their subjects with their art, not denigrate.

Make-up - that is an enhancement of the features already there (in most cases).

Your reasoning is faulty there.

[David51]

I don't

[SpeedyGonzalez]

David, you clearly know nothing about figurative art. Or women.

Dittany, whether sensuality is under- or overvalued in women is a subjective thing. It doesn't come naturally to me.

[thumbwitch]

oo, I don't know that you can dismiss rowing so easily Dittany - have you seen those all in one lycra body suits they wear these days?