Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

[JessinAvalon]

All interesting stuff - thanks all. I'm still not sure what I think about it. But I think that's because my only experience of it was definitely not something I saw as akin to pole/lap dancing.

The only people I have seen do belly dancing was at a class taught by this woman - and, as you can see, she's heavily pregnant in the photo on the 'classes' section:

www.egyptiannights.co.uk/

[David51]

unrulysun So where did I say it was OK for women to be objectified?

The issue here is that you and some others are appealing to the concept of objectification in order to claim there is no difference between belly dancing and lapdancing.

That claim is - to put it mildly - controversial and I think I am justified in questioning how you arrived at it.

I'm sorry if you find this approach 'academic' but it is my belief that when people are putting forward contenious views and there is no general consensus it does actually help to try to think through the basic philosophical issues.

As far as showing support for women is concerned, I appreciate your advice on the subject, but I think it would be fair to say that in the world that exists outside this forum I am already doing the things you suggest.

[tinierclanger]

So are we getting to a perspective whereby any form of dance involving some kind of wiggling that men might find erotic is anti-feminist?
I'm with Emma Goldman on this. It's starting to sound rather joyless. Do we have to stop doing things we enjoy just in case they are co-opted for objectification?

[JessinAvalon]

Yes, for me the origins are significant. Things like "pole fitness" came out of strip clubs. But belly dancing didn't (as far as I understand it) yet in some cases has been co-opted as a sexual form of entertainment. As I said earlier, my only experience of it is the woman whose classes I posted a link to and she has photos of herself performing throughout a pregnancy. I'm sure a lap dancer would not be welcomed in a club if she was a few months pregnant. It doesn't exactly fit with the image of the sexually available woman.

[Ormirian]

Agree with dittany and tons.

Enjoy your belly-dancing but don't tell me it's a feminist activity. So it promotes female sensuality- big whoop! A woman's place has always been in the kitchen and the bedroom - providing the sensual elements of life for men. Would be nice if it wasn't still such a big deal.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

tinier - I see why you're saying that but that's not the point I was making at all. This is about the dancing being performed by women for men. Men don't participate in lap dancing or belly-dancing except as spectators - there is a difference.

I wouldn't make the same point for samba, tango or salsa for example which is something that men and women do together using the same moves.

Also what Orm said - there are plenty of things that I enjoy that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny on this forum but I would not (now) co-opt feminism as a justification for it. The original OP was about bellydancing being used at a feminism festival and promoted as a feminist activity rather than bellydancing itself.

[tinierclanger]

But doesn't the context of the performance affect it? Surely there's a difference between performing for men in a club or restaurant, and performing at a feminist festival?

I dont really 'get' the idea of a feminist activity anyway. I don't especially claim belly or any other dancing as feminist. I just object to the idea it's anti-feminist. Which is the message I'm getting here.

[HerBeX]

As far as I understand it belly dancing was something women did together and for each other - it later became co-opted because of course men muscled in on it, they can't bloody resist muscling in on our stuff can they.

TBH I think saying that it is an anti-feminist activity per se is a bit like saying lesbian sex is anti-feminist, because pervy men like watching it. Anything women do whcih they enjoy which doesn't involve men, will eventually be co-opted by men in a patriarchy and sexualised for their entertainment - so lesbian sex in porn is generally geared towards titillation of men rather than lesbian women enjoying themselves regardless of whether a man is watchng them or not. Same with belly dancing - of course it's about sensuality and sexuality, most dancing is, isn't it, that's why puritans and taliban banned it - but there's nothing wrong with that per se - it's when it's co-opted by men and turned into perv-fodder that it's a problem.

And unfortunately practically anything can be turned into perv fodder. I bet you there's a niche market for porned up morris dancers as well.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

I haven't expressed myself very well. "feminist / anti-feminist activity" - really poor use of language.

I don't think there's anything wrong with belly dancing as an activity in itself. I have friends who've belly danced at Sadlers Wells. I've cringed as fat old western men leer around young Moroccan belly dancers in restaurants pushing tips in their skirts while their wives look on.

Context IS everything. I agree with you there Tinier

I just agree that the OP's friend was right to question why a feminist arts festival thought that belly dancing was appropriate when they probably wouldn't have had a burlesque show / pole dancing etc. (Disclaimer - don't know what else was on the bill there.)

I also think it is an activity heavily marketed to a certain type of women (just as pole dancing / burlesque classes is to other types of women) as a liberated, empowering way of expressing their physicality / sensuality - and I would say there is no real difference between the two.

[HerBeX]

I think I agree with those who say that the difference is origin.

Belly dancing was invented by women for women. Lap dancing was invented by men for men.

[nickelbabyhatcher]

Unruly "I'm not sure I'm buying belly-dancing as birthing tbh. Seems a bit elaborate. "

this is my teacher

I posted her in a youtube link earlier - she found belly dancing incredibly helpful for labour, and for keeping fit during her pregnancy.

it was always taught to girls and women, in Egypt and elsewhere to help them prepare their bodies for adulthood, and the acts that adults women's bodies need to perform.
It's not just that, though, it's keeping fit, too.

[JessinAvalon]

Tondelayo-i wasn't asking about belly dancing being appropriate for a feminist arts festival but more about whether belly dancing in particular is a feminist activity (or not) in general. I thought not but I don't know enough about it to feel very informed. Even after all these posts I'm still not sure!

[JessinAvalon]

In my post above, I meant that I didn't see belly dancing as problematic.

The feminist group promoted the belly dancer's classes to the online members of the group after the arts festival performance because so many people had expressed an interest.

[HerBeX]

I don't see it as a feminist activity in particular, anymore than flower pressing or gardening. I think it's a beautiful art form which has been associated with women and co-opted by men, but that's not the definition of a "feminist activity" is it. Unless they're going in for some such argument as "re-claiming it for women" or whatever.

In fact, what is a feminist activity?

[HerBeX]

Is that the definition then? Because I have heard quilting, embroidery etc. be described as a feminist activity in that it is reclaiming an art form/ craft that has been controlled and formed by women and therefore important to point at as one of women's contributions to art and culture (seeing as how most of our contributions to arts, sciences etc. have been erased) - but it doesn't particularly threaten the patriarchy, does it? Except insofar as contributing to a sense of confidence for women that we have actually contributed to human culture in spite of being so repressed and having our contributions ignored or undervalued or co-opted.

[tinierclanger]

Even if you're right about that Dittany, why the assumption that any kind of private performance for a man is oppressive? Where does it end? If my husband watches me undressing, is that the patriarchy in action too?

[nickelbabyhatcher]

dittany - not just birth, it helps all the way through pregnancy and getting your body back into shape after the birth.

it has also been shown to help period pain.

[nickelbabyhatcher]

and, i've also posted a video of someone using belly dance moves to ease labour pains.
my teacher's first baby was facing the wrong way round, and she used belly dance to move him back round the right way

[nickelbabyhatcher]

feminism isn't about overthrowing men! that's why so many people say they're not feminist or that they hate feminists!

Feminism is about celebrating being a woman - it's about women being on a par with men - equality.