Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

i didn't mean to twist what you said.
as i said before, i interpreted differently from how, it tranpsires, you meant it.

in the case of rape etc, of course the soldiers had choice.
the problem is, that historically, women didn't mean much more than a possession, and you can't really blame the soldier for that - it's nature versus nurture. It was drummed into them for centuries that women were objects
so wonder they automatically objectify us.
but they'll do that regardless of what we do - think about all the women who were raped, and how not very long ago, a women's personal history could be taken into account in the court case - if she had a reputation, it would count agaisnt her.
Now that's shocking and appalling, and it's changing.
it's all changing in a much quicker time than it was "normal"

don't think i'm making excuses for them.
i weep for the women who have suffered at the hands of men.
we can't change the past, but we can change the future, and we can do it without using the same underhanded tactics the men have used.

and HerBex - this is one of the reasons I don't hang around here often - i've tried, but everytime I say something, I'm accused of not knowing what i'm talking about.
i want to support feminism, and learn soo much more about women and how we can become recognised and rewarded for being human beings, but I find there's too much anger involved.

of course people are angry but you don't have to feel accused or aggrieved if someone else articulates an opposing point of view more forcefully than you expected

it's good to be challenged, and the very very black and white arguments are incredibly seductive and thought provoking but they are ultimately just that, arguments, not an assault on you personally

you are making excuses for those soldiers by the way

and its not changing at all, look at DRC for example!

I think if you post here, you either have to be prepared to have robust arguments discussions, or learn to apologise profusely and on many levels when the Alpha females approach.
Or dip in and out to see how the wind is blowing and decide whether to set sail or just watch the hardy types from the sidelines.
Don't get upset, it's an exchange of opinions that differ is all, nothing that should damage your sense of self-worth.

'of course people are angry but you don't have to feel accused or aggrieved if someone else articulates an opposing point of view more forcefully than you expected

it's good to be challenged, and the very very black and white arguments are incredibly seductive and thought provoking but they are ultimately just that, arguments, not an assault on you personally'

I agree MI, and that's always the spirit in which I read posts, or have discussions on emotive subjects in RL.

dittany - i'm not applying it to you!
i'm applying it as a general obvservation of the anger that feminists seem to have.

yes, we have a damn right to be angry, but i don't see why picking me aprat is a good thing!
i don't see how shouting down a woman on a feminist board is going to help the feminist cause.

fuck it, you're all mad.
i'm never going to enter into this section again.

that's not quite the same thing as someone twisting your words of course

am trying to reread the exchange between dittany and nickelbabyhatcher

Not at all unreasonable Dittany, did I say so?
As a historian, I'm well aware of the atrocities done in God's name, and as a human being I'm horrified by the continuing abuses of children, women and minorities across the world.

and i wasn't making excuses for soldiers who torture and rape women and children.

i was making excuses for the boys who were forced to go to war to kill.
that's a completely different kettle of fish.

nobody is picking you apart are they? You are free to defend what you said, or not

Are we doing feminism wrong again?

(i'm still here )
SGM "I think you are confusing child soldiers with adults. 5 year olds kidnapped from their families by rebel groups tortured and violated until they learn gang-rape as a bonding activity and reward are nit the same as adult soldiers who commit rape.

Child soldiers are themselves victims of misogynistic regimes. Preventing them from being tortured in the first place would decrease rape.

Adult soldiers do it because they can. Because they want to."

not confusing - keeping both groups in separate compartments in my own head and reasoning.
am thinking of the ones that were brainwashed and tortured - not just as child soldiers, but men who were forced into war, men who were goaded and ridiculed until they did what they "were supposed to do"

that was the words i used - i didn't say that you personally wanted to go round killing, raping and torturing people until they agreed with what you stood for.

what i said was that it's never a good plan to wage war to make people see your POV.
and i stand by that.

In order to destroy the enemy, you first make them 'other' so that the common links between you are broken.
Then it's easier to excuse what you do, to yourself and others. Acting in a pack is also an effective method to dehumanise the individuals and fuse them into an aggressive unit.

She got it wrong.
If she's apologised and backed down, then the thread might have moved on.
Some people need a proper apology rather than a 'it was my opinion and it differs from yours, and that's OK' or they find it difficult to accept that it wasn't a personal and vindictive attack on an individual poster.