Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

Makes sense to me, but as always others are entitled to have different opinions and express them very strongly. I wouldn't worry much, it's not the first or last thread to stir things up.

I don't think the issue of belly dancing is what stirred it up particularly.

Oh well, thanks again all for the responses.

I do not think belly dancing is anti-feminist . (For the reasons i stated earlier in thread).
I have not posted in feminism before , but as belly-dancing is one of my great loves i thought i should argue for its defence.

Belly -dancing although mainly performed by women , is a form of dance that is also done by men. So i suppose its not feminist either, but feminine.

What i have noticed is a vast difference between feminine and feminist .

Men can do horrible , awful things , (like dittany brought up , rape murder ect).The oppression of one human being by another is truly the most vile thing, and should always be fought against.
However , women also do horrible things , in history there have been women murderers , women spouse abusers, women child abusers... we can be as bad as men.There are also male rape victims, male domestic violence sufferers and men who are oppressed by other men. Humans as a species can be evil .

If there is such a thing as true equality within the sexes , and a lack of psycotic or disordered personalities , mutual respect for another human being ,then there would be no call for feminism as we know it.

Is it not equality that we should strive for ?

Equality that means the freedom to express ourselves regardless of gender,race ,religion, sexuality or size. Freedom to do this without fear of ridicule or comments that slur. Without fear of others thinking the worst or predudice.

Dance of all types is a form of expression. It can be quite breathtaking to watch someone dance. The human body is a beautiful tool a dancer uses to convey a message to his/her audiance.
The same way a poet uses words , or a painter , oils on his canvas.
I am agast that belly-dancers are seen as sleezy titalation , that some actually think they dance in seedy/dirty clubs for dirty old men...nothing could be further from the truth.Nor is it like burlesque or pole dancing...You do not remove your clothes !!!!.

The countries in which belly dancing has a long history ( its "new" to the uk), the dancers are highly valued and revired like prima-ballerinas . Often elevated to superstar status.
It is seen for what it is ...a highly skilled art.

.... and there is a wonderful side affect .
When you belly -dance ,you embrace yourself.
You cant shimmy if your a size 0 . Its very anti -thin-like-a-twig.

When your are bombarded by mags/tv that thin is sexy/attractive/normal/acceptable eventually it starts to eat at your self worth. Belly-dancing reinforces good thoughts about being in your own skin.

It tells us that women are supposed to have a little jiggle about ourselves, we are not men ,and shouldnt strive for hard bodies like them.

That its ok to be a woman , when the media want us to be almost like pubesent girls.

"You cant shimmy if your a size 0 . Its very anti -thin-like-a-twig."

What is feminist about excluding women of other bodyshapes? (I am quite thin btw and would not be able to bellydance - maybe that is my problem )

Phew - what a lot of pages!

Well, I'm standing by my experience that bellydancing by-women-for-women is A Good Thing. I wouldn't claim it as a feminist activity, there are obviously issues with its performance in some contexts. However, I'm going to re-iterate that I've never found such solidarity, acceptance and sisterhood within any other community, mixed or women-only.

Our own class is a mix of sizes and ages, we're nearly all mothers, but the common bond is our love of dance. We take ourselves out to perform sometimes at the local high school, and at girls' groups. I feel that by putting ourselves out there we're doing a little bit to offset the "perfect" dieted, silicone enhanced, waxed, dyed, tanned etc image that is so all-pervading, and if that makes one girl in the audience feel better about herself, then I feel I've done a little bit of good.

Um, in my experience you can still be a very good dancer if stick-thin. i dance with some quite thin women.
You may not be able to wobble, but you can certainly shimmy. Shimmying is not just setting up a jiggle.

Are you a size 0 , with hip bones jutting out ? .

If you have flesh , you can shimmy .

You actually shimmy with your legs and the jiggle travels up iykwim ? hard to explain without showing you. It defo works better if you are not a size 0. lol .

But thats`not to say if you are very thin , you couldnt learn to belly dance. Just that some of the "wobblier" moves would be harder for you iykwim.

perhaps i worded that wrongly ?.

I should have said , unlike some types of dance it does not require you to be thin in order to be a sucessful bellydancer.

(like ballet).

My main point , which seems to be missed entirely is that it is not following the medias unatural obsession with thinness = attractive woman.
Normal women can do it without feeling that they need airbrushed !!!!!

Ok, you're meaning an actual size 0 person (ie skeleton covered with skin).
I thought you were exaggerating for dramatic effect. (I've wondered how size 0 people muster the energy to move at all, myself).

I think we're agreeing about this from opposite directions - that you can bellydance whatever size you are, and that is, as you say anti-media-image.
A Good Thing :)

When i started bellydancing i was a size 6-8 .... now im a size 10-12 ( im very short , so now have a lot to jiggle ) .I have found a huge difference in my shimmys now as to then ( but mabey its the years of practice ? )

When i was thinnner i prefered veils , it was more suited to my then bodyshape.Lots of lovely arm movements
Now i like a good deep shimmy , with perhaps a few camels thrown in for the fum of it.Gets the belt noisy.
Never got the hang of cymbals ...

smashing the media -image is what im all about !

You're idea of curvy is a lot different to mine - I'm a size 12 and would call myself thin.

ah but a petite size 12 (shortarse like me) is often more curvy than a taller size 12 .

A small frame 12 could be flabby and a large frame 12 could be actually quite toned/thin (but not skelatol).
Dress size is not really a good indicator on its own.....

^dittany Sat 26-Mar-11 15:45:32
I don't know GC.

There was someone on here who was being absolutely vile to me quite recently, continually picking away at me. And people were being nice to her! Even though she was coming out with some incredible anti-feminist tripe as well.^

^ madwomanintheattic Sat 26-Mar-11 16:31:28
people should be able to post forthright opinions. but there is no such thing as an identikit feminist. there just isn't. the louder and more strident the voices on the feminist board, the more 'the feminists are all a bunch of shouty nutters' opinion infiltrates the main boards. i hate the fact that it seems as though i want feminists to lower their voices - i don't really, i want them to moderate their tone so that more women are able to identify as 'feminists' instead of running screaming in the opposite direction.

it's not 'come to feminism and learn something', it's 'avoid feminism because unless you go in knowing what the party line is, they will slash and burn you'.^

This. LOVE this quote (says what I have been wanting to say for a while), and highly applicable to this thread, which has fascinated me. Hummmm, not quite sure where I stand on it as it is never something I have properly understood. For now, what with my choice based stance, I think it is feminist. But I AM thinking about it more, so thank you for an interesting thread OP!

Bugger, me ^'s went wrong.

Actually, I assumed you were having a pop, hoever you mentioned no names so the biscuit was unjustified and I apologise.

If there is such a thing as true equality within the sexes , and a lack of psycotic or disordered personalities , mutual respect for another human being ,then there would be no call for feminism as we know it.

what the fuck does this mean?

(not that I have a problem with blaming my factitious psychotic disorder on male oppression)

I actually don't think my problem (such as it is) with bd, isn't that it may or may not have been co-opted by men for titillation. It's more that it seems to reinforcing the 'feminine mystique' argument that so many women seem to think is part and parcel of feminism. Women are so different from men, that they have to have different forms of self-expression, ones that have to be focused on their wombs, or their ability to bake bread etc. I clearly remember taking part in feminist workshops back in the mid 80s when I was at university that involved tea and knitting and organic home-made flapjack . I kept thinking that it was more or less the same as the sort of thngs mum used to do when I was growing up but with fewer Tories.

I don't want to be defined by my womb and my breasts and all the things that are sex-exclusive. I want to be defined by my entire being, the things that make me human as well as the things that make me ME, Ormirian, that may or may not be to do with my sex.

oh, dittany, i think we've morphed. i was just going to repeat that.

quote of the week? please, please.