Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

Re lifting a heavy boat over my head... it depends on how heavy "heavy" is but, as Egyptian dance doesn't particularly develop great strength in the arm muscles, I probably couldn't through that activity alone. However, I'm pretty damn strong anyway, and have lifted old-fashioned 1970s kayaks, enraged German Shepherds, garden sheds and solid wood 4' x 6' bookcases, so I would probably have been able to give it a damn good go.

My dancing was for joy in music and movement, in mastering complex movements, in feeling my muscles isolating and flowing, in occupying space in new ways. I'm also all for telling people's expectations of pleasure to go stuff themselves.

I like to dance, I don't enjoy other forms of exercise. I'm not accepting that dance can or should be substituted with rowing, martial arts or whatever. I actually feel a bit annoyed that anyone would suggest that. Dance is special, like singing.

I am physically strong/ sporty.....but dancing and feeling sensual are something different to me as well.

One point I was going to make earlier but feels relevant now is...I don't think female sensuality is valued at all. Female sexualisation and objectification...definitely over valued and over hyped. But an appreciation of feeling sensual in our own skin, just as we are....not so much. And this is what I like about the female centered aspects of belly dancing....

Speedy sums it up for me too. Dancing enables me to enjoy and take delight in what my body can do.
I could do physical exercise instead - for ten years I did hard physical work (worked in agriculture, in a very male dominated sector - I know all about that struggle) - it is categorically not the same thing. Rowing might enable you to delight in your body Dittany, but it wouldn't me.
Interestingly though, Tribal bellydance does build up much greater upper body strength. 'Tis very, very hard work. Love it .

Madwoman - that sounds horrible. I wouldn't even consider dancing in that situation. It's something I do for me, with my friends, on my terms.

In fact many of us who dance are actually quite reticent about it, just because of the reaction it gets from men. I tell my female friends about it when I know them well enough for them to know I'm not a wannabe-stripper.

Actually, what is wrong with feeling sensuous, sexy and damn beautiful? Given that I'm dancing for a female audience who are not objectify-ing me in any way, so I can't be doing it for the reward of male attention, what is wrong with feeling gloriously in control of my body, interpreting the music and doing interesting things with muscle groups many people aren't even aware they've got ?

Please note - I'm pretty ordinary looking, you wouldn't turn your head to look at me if I passed you on the street. I know it and I'm comfortable with it now. Dancing just makes me feel beautiful. And none of my fellow-dancers are going to contradict me

I've had belly dancing lessons and had one - only one - rather odd teacher who seemed to think she was training us for bar work; the others taught classical Egyptian dance and it was all about feeling womanly rather than titillating men.

I know that Scottish lady linked to on page 1 - she used to teach a friend of mine! I've been lucky enough to see her dance and it is so far from sleazy, definitely not about exploitation or man-pleasing. She dances with a great deal of humour as well as skill. As has previously been said by other posters, dancers at a meet are all ages, shapes and sizes and it's really not about sex in an overt way.

Hmm, Lovecat, I wonder if I know you then?

LOL at Madamh going around lifting up enraged German Shepherds.

Maybe they wouldn't be so enraged if you weren't continually lifting them up?

I have visions of you in a field lifting furious German shepherds through flocks of German sheep. The shepherd is swearing in German, the sheep are bleating loudly, you are determinedly striding through the field with your belly dancing belt jingling and janglign away holding angry swearing shepherd aloft as he shouts "Arsch! Fecken Sie Arschenkeksen"...

I think it's bedtime.

Hi all
Thanks so much for all the responses. Really appreciate all your thoughts and experiences. Some are echoing my thoughts about belly dancing-that it's about women of any size or shape dancing for other women. I don't see it like pole dancing or "pole fitness" (ahem) at all and since I started Bollywood dancing (different to belly dancing but still hard) I do appreciate the skill of good dancing even more.

I have only ever come across belly dancers enjoying the freedom from dancing and it's one of the only dances styles I can think of where being larger in size is an advantage. However I can see that it could be co-opted by men as a titillating dance style in some contexts.

To me, pole/lap dancing is about male power over female sexuality, even though it's claimed to be about female sexuality and power. The dances involve a woman deliberately teasing and titillating a man at his instigation (he chooses a dancer in a club, he pays her) and they involve her taking her clothes off to titillate him.

A belly dancer IMO is showing off her skill and body but it's her choice, her context, and she doesn't remove her clothes. There are no belly dancing clubs for male clientele that I know of as there are lap dancing clubs. Is that because men don't exert their power and choices over a belly dancer as they would over a lap/pole/table dancer? It's a completely different power dynamic.

That's how I see it anyway. Sorry if the above doesn't make sense! I an typing on my phone.

Please add more experiences if you have them to share.

Thanks!

Most of the belly dancing I have come across in the UK is danced by women to a largely female audience. It is

I'm sure some men find the sight/idea of belly dancing sexy, but then again there are men who seem to get over excited at the sight of a woman in jeans walking down the street. Just because some men ogle, doesn't mean the women should alter their behaviour in any way,

I'll leave you with this quote about bellydance that I have come across:

"Why bellydance?...

Egyptian culture seems to have far stronger links to dance in day to day life than we have here in the UK. Egyptian women of all ages, from 3 to 90 years old, will dance for and with each other at celebrations such as weddings. This sometimes seems unusual to us in the UK, where some seem to believe that dancing should be limited to fit, young exhibitionists, and should not be enjoyed by everyone as a celebration of living. The movements used within bellydance are very natural movements, which help make this dance form available to a far wider range of ages, body shapes and levels of fitness than many other dance forms. Perhaps most importantly, bellydance is about interpretation of the music and personal expression. This allows every dancer to put their own style, emotions and personality into the dance... as such, everybody who bellydances brings something unique to it."

Not sure where the extra "It is" came from ... sorry.

Dittany-I love dancing. Always have done. After a crappy day trying to plan NHS finances and manage some annoying staff I forget it all at my dance class. I love the music and the physical challenge of learning difficult moves. I love the camaderie of dancing with other women for fun. A size 18/20 women would be unlikely to be able to jump around doing Bollywood dancing or do a pirouette en pointe yet belly dancing is one dance where someone that size has an advantage over a size 8 ballerina.

The women I have met who enjoy belly dancing do it for the same reasons that I do my dance class. I can't see why it's considered akin to lap/pole dancing.

Cross posted Piprabbit. Interesting post-thanks.

Or try to see some lovely UK belly dancers enjoying themselves. Probably a much more common sight in the dance studios of the UK than Dittany's example.

But Dittany, you could say much the same about the film industry - that it's about the exploitation of women for the titillation of men. You could find all sorts of evidence to support that assertion. That is, if you only focused on porn and ignored all the rest.

Sensuality and enjoying one's body is an important part of private, sexual pleasure. In fact I would say that you cannot enjoy sex fully without enjoying your own body.

I can't think that any celebrated feminists would have a problem with that, let alone suffragettes.

Hmm... Dittany, I watched a bit of that video. Seems more like a boob dance than a belly dance! Def is provocative. But underneath a comment does say that it's not proper belly dancing. It's absolutely nothing like the belly dancing I have seen irl.

I like Latin and ballroom dancing too and did classes for years. I like Strictly because I appreciate the skill that goes into the dances. But I do wish the female dancers wouldn't compete with each other to wear as little as possible. It does become more about showing off the body than showing off the skill of the dance. I suspect that's what's happened with the woman in the video above.

Getting RSI now! Have to stop typing!

Piprabbit-could you repost the link? I couldn't get it to work. Thanks.

Here goes

Really?

No difference?

I'm struggling to come up with any styles of female dance which exclude any form of shaking.