Belly dancing

[JessinAvalon]

I don't want to start a raging debate about this but I am hoping that some on here may be able to settle a difference in opinion between me and a friend.

She thinks (after seeing a belly dancer perform at a feminist arts event in Bristol) that it's anything but feminist and thinks it's not that different to lapdancing (titillating, revealing costumes etc).

I don't see it like that. I do Bollywood dancing (which is very hard!) and have come across belly dancers through my dancing but they were all older, larger ladies (am I allowed to say that?!) and, to me, the belly dancers I saw were celebrating their form, celebrating the dance and generally having fun.

Admittedly though I don't know much about it. Does anyone have any views/experience/knowledge that would help the debate?

[SpeedyGonzalez]

Dittany, there are plenty of films in which women are not exploited.

[Saltatrix]

I don't see what's wrong with dance that involves shaking? dancing is about body movement with rhythm and skill (obviously varies depending on dance type) shaking is part of that there are many different styles of dance, don't see why it has to be a certain way or it is wrong.

I watched the first clip and thought her skill is impressive she has great control of her body as most professional dancers do.

[madwomanintheattic]

if you want to see piers morgan being really creepy

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr2sHpM1zWU

this of course says way more about men's reactions to belly dancers than about the dancers themselves (who i have to say are amazing, without being any sort of belly dancing expert)

ho ho, yes, you're through to vegas. because you're semi clad and purty to look at, and about to perform for me. who cares if you've got talent.

i know he's just being cheesy, but yik. yik. tik. and whateverhisnameis looks like all his birthdays have come at once. like he's about to.

[snowmama]

Can belly dancing can be used to objectify women? Yes, but to be honest we get objectified and fetishised for the most mundane things every day, what we wear, how we walk, what we say etc. Men co-opt the female form for their pleasure all the time.

Where belly dancing differs to lap dancing for me, is that Lap dancing was specifically for male titillation, promotes an odd and unrealistic image of women's bodies and behaviour.

Belly dancing can be tapped into in a really female centered way for all shapes and sizes, and does allow women to celebrate their sensuality and sexuality. That to me is a good thing, because we should be able to celebrate and enjoy them. That for me is also a wide point....in that how can we reclaim our own sexuality from the hyper sexualised/objectified version prevalent today.

[msrisotto]

Yeah I agree that pretty much anything women do gets turned into something to titillate men. Is there any form of dancing that hasn't been? Piers Morgan and that other bloke in the x factor clip were just vile, so gross, do they not realise how slimy they come across? :shudder:

I must have been misinformed because I thought belly dancing was something that women dancers did to physically arouse men, but looking at the origins on the internet, it doesn't seem like that at all! My mind is changed.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

I lurked on this thread last night and started out agreeing with the OP and having thought about it even more - I'm now with her friend. I don't think there are any arguments here made about the respectability / pro-feminist aspects of belly dancing that couldn't also apply to lap-dancing.

Both of them are about performing a codified form of sexuality for an audience whose gaze (if not always their gender) is male. I think belly dancing is older and that has given it more respectability and the perception it is more inclusive of different types of female figure has also muddied the boundaries.

The 'performance' aspect of both really makes it about objectification. The purpose is to give pleasure to the audience - not the dancer. There is also I think something sexually disempowering / sublimating (right word?) - that women should express sensuality by performing rather than the physical act of having sex. It's about the viewer's pleasure rather than hers - or her pleasure is totally in pleasing other people.

The other issue is - men don't do this. A man doesn't explore his physicality by performing sexy dances - he goes to the gym / plays a sport / runs etc. And the world is not full of clubs where hot men take their clothes off and shake their bodies as women watch.

I got annoyed when I saw on FB about a friend (educated, late 30s, great career) going on a hen night where they learned to be burlesque dancers. I thought FFS - men go and SEE strippers, women pretend to be strippers. Really riled me for some reason and this thread has helped me see why.

[David51]

What about the fact that women who belly dance enjoy it whereas women who lap dance feel abused and exploited? Is that not a signifcant difference?

[madwomanintheattic]

tondelayo - it's interesting to see how they choreograph ds1 at dance class (just pondering your thoughts about male dance). they are thrilled to have him there, and he loves it, but he definitely treated as 'different'.

last year he was austin powers (so surrounded by literally screaming wigglies) although they made it quite fun (and he did a lot of skipping ) although he was one of the crowd in the hip hop number (interesting in itself).

this year he is apparently a farmer, whilst all the girls are the animals (i imagine clucking, and a fair bit of wiggling whilst under his care...) and he is doing some sort of solo thingy in the hip hop. (we aren't allowed to see the performances until the comptetitions/ shows, so can't really specify), but there is definitely a lot more teaching of sensuality and body movement for the girls at this level (they are all quite young). now that he has given up ballet because he was being victimised by a group of girls the difference is far more marked. even the girls, it seems, are unhappy with a bosy using his body as an expressive tool...

[madwomanintheattic]

boy, not bosy...

[madwomanintheattic]

it's significant for the performers, david. do you think it is significant for the voyeurs? or for other women who do not wish to be seen as performers for men?

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

Is that a fact though? There are plenty of women who go to pole dancing lessons / erotic dancing classes (years ago I marketed a book & video range on this theme so have an idea that it can be pleasurable and "feel" "empowering") just as I imagine that belly dancers working for tips in Marrakech tourist restaurants hardly feel liberated.

Is the difference being paid for it / doing it for pleasure?

I think one of the F&WR regulars can put it better than me - I can recognise there is pleasure and fun to be had out of doing both and dancing generally but neither are acts of liberation and both are rooted in objectification.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

My response is to David btw.

[AbsDuCroissant]

I would agree with the OP's friend, but based largely on my experiences of belly dancing (normally busty blonde women in Turkish restaurants shaking their boobs in business men's faces).

It is dancing that is meant to be seductive/arousing - shaking hips and shoulders to make your boobs wobble.

If you compare it to say, ballet - which is a pure art form and actually the men traditionally perform a minor role, the distinction becomes greater. If you watch any ballet from the 19th and early 20th Century with it's original choreagraphy, the male is there to "look handsome and be princey" and "support the female while she does fabulous stuff"

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

Very interesting Madwoman - is it possible the trend for street / hip hop dancing might help break down the barriers for boys who want to dance - that would be interesting to watch - and also in the Step Up movies etc where the dancers are much more androgynous and the girls dancing is as aggressive as the boys...

[David51]

'voyuer' is a bit of a loaded term, don't you think? I can watch a belly dancer without feeling like a dirty old man but I doubt if I'd feel the same way with a lapdancer.

You may say that both involve objectification which is fair enough - but what I'm struggling with is the idea that all kinds of objectification are equally bad, regardless of context

[nickelbabyhatcher]

I do belly dancing.

it originated in the middle east/africa as an aid to pregnancy and child birht.

it is not a form of burlesque dancing!

some forms of belly dancing, eg Turkish, can looks rather risque, and in the 50s, in Egypt, a list of laws relating to the style of bellydancing was made up to prevent the dance becoming seen as pervy.

It was never designed to be sensual.

In Egypt, there are many types of dance - there's Saidi, which is almost tribla in form, and the lady's form of it nods towards the male dancing - with sticks etc. The dance imitates the Arab horses.
There's also Beladi/Baladi which means "from the country", and it was a form that the Egyptians who moved into towns for work used to keep hold of their country roots.

As i mentioned before, it's extremely useful in child birth, as you learn to move muscles around and it helps with labour pains and positions.

So, so answer your original question, i don't think you could get a more feminist form of dancing!

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

Pole dancing also exercises lots of muscles that would be of use in childbirth - as indeed does the ping pong thing -

Is it a class issue do you think? That belly dancing is respectable, middle-class, middle-aged, redolent of people who can afford foreign travel and exotic restaurants.

[nickelbabyhatcher]

dittany's video links - that last one with the Saidi, Mahmoud Reda was a man who went round the whole country in Egypt and recorded (mainly written down) all of the different types of dance, then took his dance troupe and took the dances into Cairo.
He was a pioneer of Egyptiuan Belly dance.

[nickelbabyhatcher]

[nickelbabyhatcher]

[Lovecat]

FromGirders, I don't think you know me, but we probably share a mutual friend - initials AM? :)

[Unrulysun]

I'm not sure I'm buying belly-dancing as birthing tbh. Seems a bit elaborate.

I have seen men belly dance well and in mixed company and it was great but I don't think that's how it's done in the UK on the whole.

David I'm finding your responses on this thread really obtuse. I don't think you get to decide (and probably not to debate) whether it's OK for women to be objectified because you're not one. As Dittany says perhaps you could show support for women by trying to prevent violence and discrimination towards them rather than by having a nice little academic sojourn into considering objectification?

[madwomanintheattic]

oh, voyeur was a deliberately loaded term.

interesting idea about money being the final arbiter... so commodification of the female body as well as objectification. i can see where it would tie in to performance, but i'm still not liking the idea of installing a pole in the basement to keep fit. i don't feel at all the same way about belly dance classes at all, just performance context. it is the audience in that context for me, whereas for pole/ lap dancing i also have an issue with the women.

probably says more about me than anyone else though. will have to sort through that little knot.