I've got quite a simple question that I just can't answer - why would a woman not be a feminist?

[MarionCole]

Surely everyone wants equality of opportunity, don't they?

Would appreciate the opinions of those feminists far wiser than I.

Hear hear, Lacuna

Lacuna what are the unpleasant connotations? Are there really any? Are they really unpleasant?

I'm surprised that in 2011 women believe you can't be a feminist if you choose to get married and/or stay at home to look after your kids. No disrespect to the people who have said that above, I'm just surprised that the message hasn't permeated more that feminism is about choice and supporting each other.

Maybe the billboard isn't a bad idea...

I don't think I realised the need to be one until after I had chidren. Naively I did think we were winning up until that point.

I also don't identify with feminism because when I post on the feminism section I tend to get ignored because I'm not whole-heartedly agreeing with everyone. This post is a case in point.

Stubbornhubby, I was quoting peedoff. I don't think there are any unpleasant connotations to the word feminism. I'm very proud to call myself a feminist.

There are some deeply unhelpful generalisations attached to it, though.

Writer of Dreams- Oh yes, let us all thank men for considering what may benefit us when they were busy deciding on social structure.

Or

You could fight for the right for the boundaries to be broken and for women to make their own social structure. And, no, not because a man allows us.

I think because I don't like fighting. I think it begins in your immediate circle, with what you can control, and working on that. The word feminism seems wrong to me. As though it were saying women are better, more important, rather than wanting to be equal.

That's why I don't use the word. Of course I support equality of genders but at the same time I don't want to subscribe to some kind of army or political mentality because it's likely it will encompass elements I don't want to put my name to.

So I just prefer to get on with things and not tolerate sexism in my personal environment, where possible. I don't have time to worry about it.

actually it was a genuine question (tho it didn't seem like one): I actually have a teenage daughter who seems very reluctant to label herself 'feminist' .. and it bugs me.

I mean if feminism means women wanting to be equal, what would masculism mean? Would that be tolerable? As in wishing men to be equal?

Writerofdreams, I can't believe you would not identify with feminism because of the way you feel you've been treated on a single internet chat board Feminism is quite a lot bigger than just the MN feminist topic, it seems really odd to base (even partially) your non-allegiance to an important philosophy on something so trivial.

Sorry, stubbornhubby - didn't get the tone of the post

The stereotype of the angry, man-hating, ugly feminist is still live and kicking. And while it doesn't bother me - it says a lot more about those who think it than about feminists themselves - I would imagine it's a pretty tough battle for a teenage girl to fight. There is so much awful pressure on young women to conform - much more so than 20 years ago, I think. How old is she?

Writer I wouldn't take it personally. A lot of ideas are raised on this board, especially a thread like this and I often feel I want to start different conversations with different people but sometimes it just moves to quickly.

Lady of the Manor, it is the sneering, judgemental tone of your post that I was referring to. You haven't engaged with what I have said at all, you've just taken it to the absolute extreme in order to mock it.

If you read my post again seth, you'll see that I said I have been sneered at by feminists in real life too, it's not just here that the problem lies.

I always post here with a genuine viewpoint and I get responses like those of lady of the manor. I can't engage with that at all and I find it really frustrating.

Lacuna seventeen

I did once ask about it (we were at talk on gender issues in fact :-) )

I said 'you know, you have a lot of feminist attitudes, I don't understand why you and your friends so much resist being labelled 'feminists', it's nothing to be ashamed of'

She said 'don't you get patriarchal with me'

I don't think that is sneering and judgemental, I'm wondering if we're talking about the same post.

Re it being RL feminists as well as on here, well it comes to the same thing doesn't it? I mean someone might think all the Tory voters they've met have been arses/all the Labour voters have been self-righteous prigs, but still believe in low/high taxation.

'I am a feminist but I don't like the feminists I have met' would be a perfectly logical position (though quite a surprising one).

stubbornhubby - @ your daughter.

I'm not sure I would've called myself a feminist as a teenager, even in my 20s, despite having the attitude. Maybe she'll get in with the Wrong (Right) Crowd at university and end up running the Feminist Soc

I see it as sneering seth, she said "Oh yes let us thank men..." That was in no way what I was saying. I was saying that I would like feminists to recognise the practical day-to-day difficulties that arise in challenging the society we have all grown up with and to see that roundly rejecting everything in current society isn't practical or desirable for many women. My view is that just because something come from the patriarchal society doesn't mean it's wrong and questioning why someone is attached to things that they have always known and grown up with - such as the "Mrs" title - fails to recognise the reality of human psychology and actually damages the cause of feminism.

I'll give you an analogous example - I once saw this ridiculous psychological experiment in which a person on a train was asked by a person in a blue uniform (without ID or insignia) to give up her seat. The fact that she did so without question was held up as evidence that we are too deferent to perceived authority. But in my view that is far too simplistic. We are all brought up to recognise and respect the blue uniform that police officers wear. It is conditioned into us (rightly or wrongly). To then point and judge because we respond to that conditioning is ridiculous and pointless. We need to recognise that people are shaped by the world they live in and respond accordingly. Pointing and judging and expecting everyone to go against their conditioning at the drop of a hat is unrealistic. Change must be brought about slowly and people who are resistant shouldn't be judged but should be engaged with in a compassionate and understanding way.

I recognise that some of my views are anti-feminist but rather than being sneered at I would rather than feminists try to engage with me in a real way and recognise that I've made my choices not because I'm a brainwashed idiot but because my society has shaped me that way and I want to fit in, like all humans do.

ok Writer, I am finding that a really strange post because you want us to engage with you but you are putting forward a projection of what you think people have said to you rather than what they have actually said.

You want feminists to
'recognise the practical day-to-day difficulties that arise in challenging the society we have all grown up with and to see that roundly rejecting everything in current society isn't practical or desirable for many women.'

we do. have a look at the resisting femininity thread if you don't believe me.

I disagree very strongly indeed with 'questioning why someone is attached to things that they have always known and grown up with - such as the "Mrs" title - fails to recognise the reality of human psychology and actually damages the cause of feminism'; questioning is useful in my opinion. Questioning is not damaging, it is liberating. What you are basically doing there is telling people not to think.

I can't help feeling extremely exasperated by 'recognise that I've made my choices not because I'm a brainwashed idiot but because my society has shaped me that way' because that is exactly what feminism says and people on here say repeatedly; please link to the post where someone has called you a brainwashed idiot.

actually you know what, fuck it, I'm NOT going to engage with WriterofDreams any more - new personal rule - I'm not going to engage with anyone whose claims about what feminists say are so far away from what I know they say.

my answer in future will be 'If you think this is what feminism says then you are wrong; if you genuinely want to know more, go and read The Equality Illusion, Reclaiming The F-Word or The Female Eunuch and if you have read those books and you still think feminism is saying you are brainwashed then I'm sorry, I can't help you.