Rejecting Christian Beliefs

[KayHarker]

Don't quite know how to say this, but I guess I need to write it down and maybe get some moral support from someone.

I'm walking away from my Christian faith after about 20 years. I tried extreme patriarchy, and then I tried the more liberal versions, but all they seemed to be were weak attempts to fit a highly patriarchal religion into a cosy harmless box which didn't fit. I still consider myself to be a spiritual person, but I really just have to reject Christian belief because it's so anti-women, and the more I read about feminism, the more I want something different for my daughters.

I can empathise with you because this is a conflict I have. I have had experiences in my life which have led me to believe in the existence of God, and I'm fascinated by Jesus but then I run in to Mark Driscol and John Piper and those sodding Anglican vicars who would rather be part of a church which attempted to cover up the most shocking abuses against children then be part of one that ordains teh wimmin and teh geyz.

It makes me want to spit, and swear lots.

Wow Kay, that's a biggie from you. I'm sure anyone who knows how you've struggled with your faith and family and everything will be supportive of your need to find another way for yourself and your daughters. Would it be cheeky of me to offer to pray that you find a sense of meaning and some form of continuing spirituality, along with what you're looking for from feminist thought?

Not cheeky at all AMIS, I'd value it.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop(great name btw) Yes, that's about the length of it. I've been heavily influenced by Piper in the past.

Kay, I'm sorry that its come to this, and if I'm being completely honest, I think I'd walk away from it too, if I were in your situation/belief structure.

I don't see what I believe as being necessarily liberal or weak, but I also think you probably need to reject that too, before (if you ever do) find a place for Christ again.

FWIW I've never accepted male headship and have seen it as a misogynistic attempt to twist the bible to suit warped beliefs rather than a true and Godly interpretation of what is there. To me, that isn't weak :)

MBS _ I guess I just find it difficult to approach the bible wholeheartedly without seeing the misogyny and homophobia there, not to mention the genocidal madness of the OT. Maybe I'm the weak one :)

Hello KayHarker,
I don?t know anything about your personal circumstances but I remember seeing you on some religious threads a while ago and your name stuck in my head because I noticed at the time that you were reasoning within a theological framework that is very familiar to me (more than most of the other Christian posters).
I know this must be a huge thing for you.
I have not begun to resolve my spiritual / religious problems and I think in my case it is at least partly because I am struggling to regard myself as an adult, and as qualified to do so. When I was younger any attempts to discuss the aspects of the faith I was brought up in which were problematic to me were met with replies which strongly implied I was at least selfish or childish (if not wicked) to question. Although it was obvious to me that the replies were themselves philosophically lacking (and childish) I am still not quite able to articulate my faith problems with enough confidence and authority, still less to resolve them, and I think this is to do with the position of women within the church (that I am not a member of).
Sorry to ramble about myself on your thread; what I am trying to explain is that I remember your name and this post from you has really struck a chord with me; and if you feel you would like to post any more about this I would be very interested. And I wish you all the best anyway with how you find your way.

Just x-posted with your last post - that is exactly the failure of confidence in my reasoning that I am stuck on! Not intellectually - emotionally

I think if you've come to faith in one tradition, that's always going to colour how you look at the Bible and church teachings. You can move on from it, but it'll always be in the background because that's the first way you looked at it.

So if you come to faith in a liberal environment, that's how you see the Bible, and you view the misogynistic parts of it as "incidental" to the overall thing. But if you've started in a church (or family) where those parts are seen as important teachings, then you either accept them or reject them, but can't ignore them.

I think there's wisdom in that AMIS. There's an unconcious grid through which I see the bible, and it's a fearsome thing to try and get past that.

I guess I just got to the point where I had to ask why I was trying so hard to discount great swathes of something just so I could believe the other bits that appealed to me.

I ended up thinking, if I'm going to make it up as I go along I might as well go the whole hog and adopt a spirituality that I could whole heartedly sign up to.

That sounds like a good plan - small amounts of compromise to deal with the odd bits you disagree with are one thing, but if you're having to do that to big parts of a belief system then you do have to wonder why you don't just start again with a clean slate.

You can decide what your philosophy/spirituality says - so things like everyone being equal would maybe be an important one, since it's been one of the aspects thats been a problem.

Well, that's it, isn't it - equality seems like such an obvious thing, yet I've been sitting under the teaching of those who believe women are 'equal but different' and bar their voices from almost everywhere as influencers in the church.

I really wish me and the more liberal end had worked out, but with Dh still on board with patriarchy, I don't think I stand a chance.

How is your DH reacting to this? Have you been able to discuss it?

Interestingly enough, I was originally in the RCC, which is strongly patriachal, but didn't preach the concept of male headship, which may be why I wasn't so heavily influenced by it. Although it caused other problems...

He ranges from the oblivious to gentle mockery of any viewpoints other than male headship. I don't think he has the first clue about what I've been struggling with and I'm kind of nervous about bringing it up with him. Not wanting to rock the boat, thinking I can just quietly do this on my own.

I have no helpful thoughts Kay, just didn't want to lurk and not post. If you are who I think you are, this must be tough, though possibly no tougher than the years of trying to make it all fit together. I hope there is a way forward for you that makes sense.

Can't offer you much help on this one Kay, being (as you know) a full on athiest.
But I remember you from a while back and really just wanted to say Hi and wish you well.

Thanks mackerel and SGB - it would be really nice if I could be an atheist, so much simpler.

I have a feeling you are way ahead of me on this and have done all sorts in the past - do ignore this. But I can say that something that helped me gain perspective on Christianity was learning a lot about another faith. I went back to church for some time after that, although at the moment I am an atheist again. It has to be proper classes run by the religion in question though, not external classes run by non-faith members, which however respectful are never going to see the other faith as truly normal IMO.

Hate to say it (I often seem to end up suggesting this) but have you attended a Friends meeting? Again, sorry if you were a Quaker for years, survived a Quaker school etc. If you are in pain but needing spiritual succour, at least there nothing is required of you initially but just to be.

I don't know you either but wanted to say that I struggled with this as a young Catholic. I turned my back on the church and on patriarchal religion a long time ago and every year has made me feel like I was so so right to do so. The misogyny and homophobia could not be ignored or put to one side, not for me anyway. I hope you find peace.

I was brought up Catholic too, it was really the misogyny and sexism that made me start to question things and to feel 'this can not be right'.

It's difficult though, I think to some extent it will always be part of me and there are aspects of it I miss.

Kay - "it would be really nice if I could be an atheist, so much simpler."

Atheism isn't necessarily simple (though I have no idea what your situation is, so it may be that it would be much simpler for you).

You never really know where a journey to explore and understand will take you. I left Christianity because the sexism made me question the whole basis of my faith. Especially the vision of the male leadership who seemed to think things that were both heartless and hypocritical were fine so long as women were somehow at one remove.

I went to Quaker meetings for a while, which I found very peaceful, but it wasn't a home for me. In the end the questioning that started with the unease about sexism didn't stop and eventually I became an atheist. I was pretty young so probably a lot more susceptible to influence (both into Christianity and then out of it). But there are plenty of people who take that journey in both directions from surprising places (and many others who find something else entirely).

I can see from your post that this is already painful, I hope you can take something from the fact that an attempt to find what is true for you is also something to be optimistic about.

Trust me, not worrying about an angry deity ready to zap me for choosing the wrong flavour of Christian belief would be infinitely simpler. :)

Thank you all for your kind posts - suchprospects you raise some interesting thoughts. ATM I'm kind of interested in Buddhism, which doesn't seem to actually require a belief in God anyway. That or some Goddess inspired thing - I'm beginning to be passionate about sexism and what little I know of Feminism.

Well there are quite a few people who have a 'matriarchal' faith (for want of a better way of putting it) and while some pagans are comepltely making it up as they go along, there are certainly some moderately strong implications and bits and pieces and writings which suggest that goddess-worship has at least as long a history as the Abrahamic (misogynistic) faiths do.
Take your time KH, the journey's as good as the arrival in many ways.
And do bear in mind that no angry deity has seen fit to smite me or the other athiests on the planet so far which would suggest that your chances of escaping smiting are reasonably good.

I know some people with progressive/feminist views fit in well with the Unitarian church, and you still get the regular churchgoing and being part of a community of (mostly like-minded) people seeking faith and understanding.

Stuffing, I'm afraid of hell. It's really annoying that of all the Christian teachings, that one is the hardest to break away from. It's kept me from attempting suicide once, which I suppose is the positive side. But it's a drag to have it niggling away at me even though I really am an atheist.

Kay I think this is something that you need to work through for yourself to be honest