Rejecting Christian Beliefs

[KayHarker]

Don't quite know how to say this, but I guess I need to write it down and maybe get some moral support from someone.

I'm walking away from my Christian faith after about 20 years. I tried extreme patriarchy, and then I tried the more liberal versions, but all they seemed to be were weak attempts to fit a highly patriarchal religion into a cosy harmless box which didn't fit. I still consider myself to be a spiritual person, but I really just have to reject Christian belief because it's so anti-women, and the more I read about feminism, the more I want something different for my daughters.

But in that society Dittany, how effectively would 12 women have got his message out? They simply would not have been heard.

Hmmm...I'm another one who's Christian and feminist, although I recognise that there are different interpretations and gradations of feminism, and there are feminists who wouldn't call me a 'real' feminist....just as there are inrerpretations and gradations of Christianity and there are undoudtedly those who wouldn't call me a 'real' Christian!

Yes, the church is veeeeery androcentric, even the nice liberal parts of it. What it comes down to, to me is this:

I believe it's true - I believe that Jesus was God incarnate, the saviour of the world. If I didn't believe that, there'd be no point being a Christian.

And yes, of course it's a mystery - if it weren't, it wouldn't be worth believing in. If I could fully explicate God, I'd not be explicating God but an idol of my own making.

And...I believe in 'progressive revelation' (i.e. change), the 'long, winding road' towards a better understanding of God. I believe that the ordinaton of women was a step along that road, and that women bishops will be the next step.

And also - if all the women / feminists left the church, it really would be androcentric! And I love it too much to be part of its demise.

And, while I'm on it, gendered personal pronouns really get my goat! I an reading a lot of 20th century theology at the moment and am getting sick to the back teeth of reading about 'the relation between God and man'...grrrr. The good news (well, it'll make me feel better, anyway) is that I am going to sit an exam this summer in which I can write as a Christian feminist. So I've got a bit of a right to reply!

As an aside (sorry if I'm rambling), I'm thinking about going into academic biblical scholarship as well as being ordained. It's saddening that the vast majority of biblical scholars are male. So the way in which theology is being done that shapes the mind of the church and has an impact on what is peached from the pulpit, is all very androcentric. And again, I care too much about the church to let that be the status quo. So I'm applying to a biblical doctorate after my degree....yikes! It'll be hard work but a labour of love, not only of the bible itself but also of the people who might benefit from it, esp. women.

can I ask what type of church your dh is involved with? Not sure if you want to say..

It may make it difficult for your marriage that you have changed. Is it a church (something like Am evangelist style IME?) which would also consider the dh as head of the home?

Dittany I'm not saying it has to be male dominated now. Don't extrapolate.

In the same way as Christianity worked with slavery to begin with, but that Christians came to understand it was wrong, ditto attitudes to women. It takes a while for society to catch up with the radical ideas actually presented and findable in original Christianity. And as you should know, he did include women in his coterie.

Yes of course it's been male dominated to a dreadful extent - but it's taken until the 20th century for things to start to change. Unfortunately it hasnt been driven by Christians much... But there is still too much for the male dominated church hierarchy to lose.

Not read the other posts, so apologies if this has been mentioned, but I'd take a long hard look at what you want to walk away from - the Christian faith in its purest form (love God, love your neighbour, help the poor) or from man-made religion.

I personally know which one I can live without, and which one I'd never abandon.

ZZzenAgain, we're involved with a traditional evangelical church, and yes, it is very much Husband is the head of the household.

Thanks all for the admonitions to think carefully about it. Believe me when I say that I have.

good luck to you Kay

Obviously it's your journey Kay, and you may find you are able to come back to Christianity, but in a different way.

I had to stop being an evangelical because I couldn't feel at all at ease with the required language, behaviours and mindset.

While I feel I have a relationship with God, I tend to find the church doesn't actually enhance that. But I still go, for various reasons. (Anglican now)

Dittany, re. the mystery thing - yes, you're right, there are loads of things I believe in that aren't mysterious at all. But my point is that God isn't one of those, because God is above and apart from everything else. Believing in God can't be compared to beleiving in feminism, or rights for asylum seekers, or whatever else. It's the belief in God that validates all the other beliefs for me.

Sorry, Kay - don't want to derail your thread!

I agree with you, Clockface. I, too, have already started down the road of Biblical scholarship and am hoping to begin postgraduate research on the very issues we're discussing.

Yes, I use the pronoun 'he' when speaking about God - this is a product of my own upbringing in a strict evangelical sect. But also reflects the fact that I am fortunate to not have a negative view of the paternal nature of God. Although, combined with Biblical evidence, I get very excited about the maternal nature of God, too! I find attempts to remove gender pronouns to be a little desperate and I never feel that they read very well. I am working hard, in a leadership position in an evangelical arm of the church, to counteract the damage done to christianity by the church, particularly on the subject of male dominance and power.

I have tried to share what I believe and I'm sorry if I've ever come over as believing that 'I know better' than anyone else. We all have our own paths to tread and I've just been sharing mine. I believe these things with a passion!

I was brought up a Christian but for me I realised about the age of 13 how wrong it was for me. How oppressive it was for females, everywhere. I was brought up Catholic. Now I don't want to be the Pope but I resent the fact that I could not be Pope.

I think removing the gender pronoun is only right.

I've read Mary Daly. She explores church history but not the Bible itself, or at least, not in its context. Her arguments are interesting but not particularly strong.

I agree that perhaps it would be right to just remove gender pronouns. Jesus was man, as were the apostles, because, as has been said before, women of the time would not have been listened to.

As part of my research I will be visiting an African matriarchal culture for whom christianity is a very vibrant part of their identity. I'm looking forward to seeing how God is viewed in a culture very different to my own.

I will restate, the Bible, particularly when read fully and understood within context, is radically empowering of women and we should not throw out the baby (God and the scriptures) with the bath water (organised christianity in the western world over the last centuries).

Dittany, if I am prepared to explore another view point, will you too read Psalms, the gospels and the letters.

Yes, I've read some Mary Daly - just ordered another book called 'Sexism and God-Language' so I'm looking forward to reading that. I've also been reading some amazing feminist non-violent models of atonement theory; there are people some doing some very good work out there. And yes, to a large degree I think you're absolutely right - religion can be very toxic and can be used to validate all sorts of exploitation and brokenness. There's absolutely no way that I'd ever say to anyone that Christianity means accepting male headship or that it means you have to stay in an abusive relationship.

But the problem is (IMO anyway) that it comes down to whether you believe it (the Christian faith itself, not all the crap that gets attached to it). When I stand up in church every week and say the Creed (I'm CofE), I mean every word of it, and I love it. Which is why I can't walk away, however much my beloved Christ has been exploited to exploit others. As to whether I could believe in xyz without Chistian faith, the honest answer is that I guess so, but I'd be a different person.

What I was trying to say is that for me, my Christian faith isn't a thing I believe in amongst other things, but the foundation for all my beliefs, in a way that goes beyond the 'WWJD' crash-course in Christian ethics.

Extending - sounds like you're doing some very cool stuff!

Better get on - I'm working on a translation of Matthew's gospel tonight - will creatively avoid gendered language!

Just to add, for anyone who might be interested, Elizabeth Fiorenza-Schussler and Antionette Wire are good feminist New Testament critics, and Claudia Camp's work on Proverbs is fantastic. I have been taught by a fabulous feminist Old Testament academic.

?Sad to say, but don't confuse God with Church! Sense at last!?

Most Christians have read and believe the words of the Old Testament although many seem to think that the New Testament is an improvement! I think it?s no surprise that hundreds of years ago the Church of Rome Sought to extend it?s power across the globe and in doing so hid the Old Testament from those it sough to convert.

In the Old Testament god is given two names in Hebrew, Adonay which has a feminine ending and Elohim which has a male ending. Jews believe that God is both Mother and Father. In the Old Testament the names are used interchangeably, god is often referred to as Adonay when he is loving and forgiving and Elohim when he is angry, vengeful or controlling. Interesting! Cetainly sounds familliar too many living under the oppression of patriarchy.

In the Jewish Faith, it is almost unheard of for anyone to refer to god as he, but few people use the word Adonay, because it is considered too holy.

Wow, Clockface, very cool! Would your OT academic be based somewhere SW by any chance?

Well QueenBathsheba (what a very very cool name btw!) I love talking about biblical Hebrew! Are you Jewish? If so I'm sure ou have a much better idea of how Jews view God than I do.

(Bible Geek alert) Both of the names for God that you picked up on are interesting; both are plural nouns and both are ancient Near Eastern names for God rather than specifically Israelite(El being the singular form of Elohim; Adonai is a Ugaritic word that literally means 'father'; so not v. feminine). The most important name for God surely is Yahweh, the name revealed to Moses at the burning bush. There is definitely mother imagery in the Old Testament, and loads of birthing imagery, some of it very graphic (!)...I'm just not sure it's in the divine name(s).

From a Christian / New Testament point of view, Beverley Gaventa's done an excellent study on mother imagery in St Paul. It had a huge impact on me when I first read it.

Extending, no, not SW, not exactly. I'm in the South of England though; I'm extremely blessed to be at a fantastic university!

Your matriarchal African Christian community sounds wonderful! Are you going to be working on gender issues / sociology of religion? I am feeling more inclined towards biblical interpretation (prob NT but I really really love working with the OT too; I've done lots of work on OT wisdom literature which is really fascinating from a gender POV).

Yes, although I had forgotten about Yahweh, as in the ?personal name of god? Appeared to Abraham as Yahweh and said to go out into the world and create a kingdom that he would make a name for himself. I am not Jewish in the real sense, my father is Jewish as were all his descendants but I am not. My father was brought up a Christian, too convoluted to explain but I grew up questioning the birth of Christ. I remember sulkily refusing at five to take part in the nativity because the teacher was telling us that Jesus was god, son of god etc..... and I knew I could never accept this as truth, lack of faith, call it what you will.

I have just started the process of finding out about Judaism and so far I find nothing in it that I didn?t already believe in.

I hope OP can find peace with herself and not give up on god. I can't comment too much on whether Christianinty is compatible with feminism, I don't think the christian church is. I do think it is possible to reconcile God and much of the bible with equality.

For me it is about accepting that God created an opposite of man, he created eve to complement adam. She wasn't less of a person, she was different. Womens strength is drawn from those differences.

Men have sought to control and manipulate women becasue God gave us the ace card, the ability to carry, birth and nurture children. That is where our strength comes from.