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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rejecting Christian Beliefs

220 replies

KayHarker · 25/01/2011 10:54

Don't quite know how to say this, but I guess I need to write it down and maybe get some moral support from someone.

I'm walking away from my Christian faith after about 20 years. I tried extreme patriarchy, and then I tried the more liberal versions, but all they seemed to be were weak attempts to fit a highly patriarchal religion into a cosy harmless box which didn't fit. I still consider myself to be a spiritual person, but I really just have to reject Christian belief because it's so anti-women, and the more I read about feminism, the more I want something different for my daughters.

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StuffingGoldBrass · 26/01/2011 00:08

Mackerel, sorry to hear that. It probably doesn't help simply to be told that it's a load of old cock, but I wonder (if it really bothers you) if a good counsellor could maybe help by treating you as though it's a phobia? I do know that quite a lot of believers in gods these days don't think that there is an actual place full of eternal torment etc...

KayHarker · 26/01/2011 09:35

Mackerel, hell is a bit of a sticker, isn't it? I'm going with 'a God of love wouldn't torment folk for eternity for just one lifetime of a mixture of good and bad'. But it's still an unconscious fear that I hope will diminish with time.

You're right SGB, I do need to take my time. Part of me feels ridiculously liberated and wants to run ahead of myself, but I know I need to have my head screwed on or risk running into an equally silly situation as the extreme patriarchy I was involved with.

Huddspur, well yes, but I posted for a bit of galvanizing support, and have had that in spades now, for which I'm grateful.

Ephiny, I'll take that into consoderation - it hadn't occured to me before now.

YeButerfleogeEffete, your last sentence really speaks to me - my faith has always been quite an isolating thing, and you read someone like John MacArthur and realize it's supposed to make you somewhat separate. I want to be strong and a decent person without operating out of fear, tbh.

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vezzie · 26/01/2011 12:19

Hell is a negative masterstroke. It is like the outer lock on the main front door that stops you going out into the street to freedom; but it doesn't re-open the door of the flat you were trying to leave when you got stuck in the lobby. (Religious musings courtesy of the episode of Peep Show where they get stuck in the hall, locked out of the flat and locked in from the street)

As you remember, our hero called a pizza in that situation. What temporary spiritual sustenance could be fed through the letter box to help those locked in religious aporia (as I used to call it before I substituted Peep Show for Plato as a source of philosophical vocabulary)?

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 26/01/2011 13:37

The modern Christian understanding of hell owes more to Dante's inferno then it does to the Bible.

It is not good or loving or kind or just to punish somebody infinitely for sins which are finite. I know the typical response to this is ''well, God is loving and just but not in a way we understand, his ways are not our ways etc''. Well in that case we might as well just say God is flardiby blark flub, make random words up to describe God for all the sense and meaning they have. If God is good and just it has to be in a way that we would understand goodness and justness otherwise we can't say God is anything.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 26/01/2011 13:44

Fake ETA.

And that is why I essentially reject the traditional teachings on hell.

MyrrhyBS · 26/01/2011 20:11

I think what sums up hell for me is

"Because God is infinitely just, we have to believe in the existence of hell, but because God is infinitely merciful we don't HAVE to believe anyone is there".

mackereltaitai · 26/01/2011 20:38

myrrhyBS, Hmm

so it's the equivalent of threatening a child every day (or getting your nursery staff/ministers to threaten a child) with locking them in a cupboard and leaving them there forever

the fact that you never actually do it wouldn't stop you being regarded as an abusive parent

why do we think God is so much worse than we are? what loving parent would threaten this to a child?

MyrrhyBS · 26/01/2011 21:19

I don't actually feel threatened by hell though, although I can see why you might think so! I think the threats mainly come from humanity!

sakura · 27/01/2011 06:59

Kay
I think you have an interesting journey ahead of you.
I struggle with the nothingness that comes from being an agnostic/atheist. I would often like to find something to fill the abyss, and I am certainly interested in the pagan religions, which are based on fertility, and therefore female-friendly (I live in Japan and the Shintou religion here is all about fertility. The one deity religions never took off here)

I can't believe in hell or heaven because I'm not sure I even believe in true evil. I believe every child is born innocent and good, but in the case of bad people, various circumstancial events ply them through their life until they become the monsters they end up (have you read about Hitler's childhood, for example).
NOt everyone who experiences bad things turn out bad,that's true, but everyone who turns out bad has experienced bad things bar none.

So I ask myself, if God is all knowing, then he would know that those people lost their humanity as a result of a series of events that other people didn't have to deal with. Why should a person who happened not to have to face evil as an innocent child go on up to heaven, whereas the one who faced evil, and failed in life by becoming evil himself, go to hell. It doesn't make sense. The one who had the easy life and therefore turned out well gets to go to heaven.

Or the person who happens to have been born in a Christian/muslim environment/country/community gets to go to heaven, whereas the infidels and aetheists who may never have even heard of the bible, don't

And with feminism: why should a woman not go to heaven simply because she rejects a religion that is inimical to her sex; whereas by that line of thinking a person born male is more likely to end up in heaven because religions are male-friendly

Sorry to ramble...

swallowedAfly · 27/01/2011 08:34

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swallowedAfly · 27/01/2011 08:36

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swallowedAfly · 27/01/2011 08:40

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KayHarker · 27/01/2011 08:52

Well, when I was much stronger in my beliefs I believed strongly in Grace, which meant I was willing to believe as MaryBS says, that there was a hell, but no-one was in it, and you didn't get to heaven by being good, you got there because of the grace and kindness of God.

But then the reality of that was you get in free, but you have to then spend a life in conformity. I've mentioned JOhn MacArthur before on the thread, and his latest book is called Slave, because that's what he believes Christians should be to God. I feel so frustrated at church because I just have no voice. Women make the tea, do the flower displays and make dinners for people who are sick. I shouldn't complain, I should be humble, but just once I'd like to hear preaching from a woman's perspective.

Anyway, just posting to thank everyone who has commented so far, it's all very helpful.

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MyrrhyBS · 27/01/2011 10:00

Well, I think I've told you before what I think of John MacArthur, Kay! :o And I am in NO doubt he would not consider me a Christian and be damning me to hell, which actually makes me feel quite cheerful, because I quite simply do NOT believe in HIS God!

I would use any book written by him to wipe my bottom with! [bblush]

sakura · 27/01/2011 10:50

"But then the reality of that was you get in free,"

That's why I can't take religions seriously. There are literally too many contradictions. I really really wish there weren't, because I'd love to have something to fill the void, but there are.
BUt I don't see anything wrong with using them as a guide. I do think there is a wealth of knowledge in the Bible, for example

SuchProspects · 27/01/2011 10:56

Kay - the being humble and consequently having no voice bit is a tool of oppression. Why are the men so so humble that they have no voice? They are no closer to God.

The point when I started to question my faith was when I was involved in a young adults bible study. We were developing a smll drama of the cruxifiction. I was representing Jesus as I was lightest and there was offing of Jesus involved. Our pastor came in to see and the only thing he said was - a girl can't represent Christ. I was appalled my it. How could anyone truly represent Christ after all, and yet we were constantly called on to be His representatives. From that moment on I just lost all respect for that pastors teaching. I couldn't see how his view could come from any place of love for women - half of God's flock. The further I looked the more I saw, at best, a view of women as pets but also a use of the power of the church to lift men up at women's expense.

The more I questioned the more I saw the hand of man in the teachings of the church. Including hell and heaven. Years later I came across Dawkins work. And while I generally find him too adversarial and ready to blame religion, some of his criticism of the character of God as portrayed by many religions I found mirrored the conclusions I'd come to.

SuchProspects · 27/01/2011 10:58

Typing on phone. Hope you can read around all the typosBlush.

KayHarker · 27/01/2011 11:15

The being humble thing is a really hard hurdle for me to jump, coming from extreme patriarchy. I've internalized so much of it, which is probably why I couldn't get along with more liberal versions of Christianity. Even now I'm feeling awful either that I might be leading my girls astray or setting them up for the biggest pile of toss ever.

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HattiFattner · 27/01/2011 11:20

I am a Christian, but do not go to Church. I have a constant internal monologue with God however, but do not subscribe to the idea of God as toute by the Christian church.

My perspective on God:

When "He" created mankind (gender neutral), he created two types - both in "his" image - man and woman. The man was dominant because of superior physical strength, willingness to fight and argue, whereas the woman was more subservient because, like women throughout the ages she had to pick up the pieces and get on with the practicalities. WHo cares about burning offerings or philosophising on the nature of heaven and hell when there are hungry kids to feed and crops to bring in?

But more than that, if we accept the premise that women were made in God's image, then all the beauty that is woman - the unconditional and eternal love we have for our children, despite what they do...that came from God him/herself.

If you accept that God's heart loves us just as we adore our children, then I find it easier to see Him as a loving father/mother, rather than a rather more masculine despot who shall smite me, verily.

Most of the religion we follow is written by man, most of the churchy rules are man made. In a time where women were not considered equal in any way.

I just take a step back and think that JC was closer to the mark - a far gentler, love base faith.

As for heaven and hell - heaven is joining the cosmic joy after death - and to do this, one must not be ground on earth by anger and regret and hate and remorse.

Hell then becomes a denial of entry to the joy, but through our own decision. Our inability to let go of the earthly issues of our life.

Im sure I would have been burned at the stake for this heresy a few centuries ago. BUt I cannot believe that GOd embodies the masculine, vengeful, and quite frankly petty aspect He is touted to have.

God also has feminine virtues - love, fidelity, forgiveness, acceptance, tolerance - this has long been neglected in the political struggle for power from the church.

dittany · 27/01/2011 11:39

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dittany · 27/01/2011 11:45

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HattiFattner · 27/01/2011 12:00

Dittany, I used "mankind" to denote humanity, not gender. "He" because biblically, God is referred to as masculine. I don't think God has a gender, hence the later references to he/she and father/mother

While I see the feminist agenda, I shall not be turning away from God/dess because of a masculine plot to make me subservient through church teachings.

My relationship with God/dess is personal. I don't need anyone telling me that my belief in a Deity is harming the feminist cause.

Much like men have dominated women and religion, now the feminist agenda is seeking to disrupt the personal bond between woman and Deity. We should be anti-church, not ant religion.

Ultimately, I see that the feminists want to break the dominance of masculine church. BUt I should like them to do so by celebrating the eternal feminine nature of GOd, by allowing tolerance of these dinosaur ideologies, by promoting the right to worship God in whichever way you wish.

slug · 27/01/2011 12:37

HattiFattner, you might like to read Man Made Language by Dale Spender.

KayHarker · 27/01/2011 12:39

Thanks dittany, I've ordered some books on amazon now :)

hatti, I've been reading about the sacred feminine and finding it very helpful.

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sakura · 27/01/2011 14:33

Hatti , feminists have no platform from which they are able to disrupt the personal bond between women and deity. But the fact we are having this conversation is down to the hard work of feminists.

It doesn't mean you have choose between feminism and your faith, but ultimately feminists should not be obliged to defer to religions. If they had done so women would be far less liberated than they are today