Rejecting Christian Beliefs

[KayHarker]

Don't quite know how to say this, but I guess I need to write it down and maybe get some moral support from someone.

I'm walking away from my Christian faith after about 20 years. I tried extreme patriarchy, and then I tried the more liberal versions, but all they seemed to be were weak attempts to fit a highly patriarchal religion into a cosy harmless box which didn't fit. I still consider myself to be a spiritual person, but I really just have to reject Christian belief because it's so anti-women, and the more I read about feminism, the more I want something different for my daughters.

and then weren't they convinced as well that women had no active sexuality of their own. I've never got that either
Or was it that certain women- the whores- were carnal, set aside for men's delight
And other women- the good women- thought sex a chore and only wished to be mothers

Well yes, there is that - I'm often told how women were the first missionaries, missing the key factor that no one believed them until the men saw Christ as well. There's always a but. Priscilla taught a man, well yes, but only with her husband present. Oh but she was listed first yada yada yada.

It either spinning the texts to make it appear that the church was egalitarian from the start or else saying well, Jesus couldn't have female apostles because of the times he lived in. Can't have it both ways.

All true, but think about the story of the "woman taken in adultery". Isn't it wonderful to imagine the crowd slinking away, each one afraid to look anyone else in the eye?

That's the best part of Christianity, or ought to be: the idea that none of us is perfect, and if we want to think about sin, we ought to think of our own sins and not someone else's. Also, there is no unforgivable sin and no unforgivable sinner.
Not that Christians have ever shown much skill in this area, especially if there's a woman to be the victim!

Read all about it:
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:1-11&version=KJV

I don't know why I'm doing this, I am not religious at all. Maybe there's the smell of dogma in the air.

Given that the chirch has eventually managed to move with the times and no longer sanctions slavery or racism I wonder why the attitude to women is taking so long to change in some denominations? (Not to mention gays.)

Some denominations are very keen on control and who wields the power, and some of the evangelical demoninations are v v keen on keeping women "in their place" for whatever reason.

I reject that. But I don't reject Christ. I really can't believe that he would be interested in oppressing women in this day and age. I may be woolly but I think he did say quite a lot of new stuff about society at the time, but the message was more about how we can get access to God and how we should treat each other, not about specifics of who does what. The early church tried to work that out, and probably has a lot to answer for!

''He never told men to stop oppressing women.''

He told his disciples to not oppress one another, do not lord over one another as the gentiles do, he who wants to be master should be as a slave - or words to that effect.
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The thing is, once you start to look in the bible for confirmation of how you want your religion to be (pro-women, loving, peaceful, anti-slavery, whatever) you can find it. But that just shows how it can be turned to anything. It was used to beat women into submission - how is it any more right or wrong when it's used to hold women up? As Kay says - there's always a "but". Whichever way you want to look at it you can find a contradiction, it may be a single verse when everything else points in exactly the other direction, but someone will find that and hold on to it to shore up everything else they want to believe. And if you can do that, how can you believe any of it?

When I started thinking about it like that I started wondering what sort of god I thought would be a good God. And it just wasn't the sort of entity that would think being worshiped was in any way a good thing - because in the end, how is that love? So what was the point in having faith in that sort of God? At least that's what I found once I started questioning. :)

You say that like it is some major flaw. It isn't. There is supposed to be discussion and debate. The church has undergone several reformations - every generation has its theologians who bring something new to the table, new ideas which encourage us to view scripture in a different way.

Hello Kay

I haven't seen you around in a while but wanted to say I always admired your posts. I don't want to get into the whole feminist/Christianity thing today (I like Clockface quite happily embrace both) as my energy is lacking, but didn't want to not comment on your post. I am of course sad that you feel that Christianity is not the way for you, but also see what AMIS and others are saying is right; you need to find your own way. If the form of Christianity you were living with was causing you to live in fear, then that was not the way it should be.

For me Christ following is about the utter opposite to oppression, but instead ultimate freedom and being who I am meant to be, certainly not 'settling for a shitty life' Far from it. My life is an adventure, I have a lot of crap to contend with but the peace amidst that is mind blowing. I do pray that you find more peace in wherever you go Kay, because you are obviously not feeling that way right now, so you are right to venture on to a journey.

Not all expressions of following Christ are misogynistic. In fact, I would go as far as to say that following Christ in truth would reject sexism, racism etc in any form and embrace love, life and equality.

But suchprospects, what if worshipping God is not just to Make God Feel Happy and Big, but for us, to bring us into a place where we are more whole than we have ever known? Because that is my experience of worship. It is a two way process, in which we receive impossibly more than we can imagine.

But I am somewhat biased

madhairday - why on earth would a loving creator create such a self-serving set up? Why not create beings that were already whole? It just seems like a classic personality disorder.

Well, gods are all made up by people, that's why they want what people want, flattery, adoration and superpowers. People can be capricious and irrational, so they made up gods who are likewise.
THis is why believing in gods, if you think about it, like, for a few seconds, is fundamentally ridiculous.

lol SGB

Thanks for the input everyone. It's nice to feel heard, whatever your viewpoint on my situation.

I guess it's the age old free will thing suchprospects, reluctant as I am to get into discussion today (well it's my own fault) If we were already whole, sorted etc we'd not have choice. Less loving perhaps to create beings who worship God by default, as it were, just because God likes to be worshipped.

As it is, I think God created us as people with our own opinions, intelligence and emotion, and right to choose rather than simply be automated playthings.

But then again, I'm obviously nuts and fundamentally ridiculous. Ho hum.

The thing is madhairday, the more I hear people try to explain why a God would be the way he/she/it is (as you are here) the more I am reminded of threads of abusive and controlling spouses in the relationships forum.

Mmmm. Fair enough. In the end, God is not something that can be explained, so my fumbling attempts fall far short, and I am sorry about that. I can only assure you with all that is in me that the relationship is far from abusive and controlling. Upbuilding, freeing, encouraging, faithful.

But I cannot explain why.

well said Madhairy. I agree. In christ jesus there is freedom. Thing do get difficult at times and i have stayed away but somehow i always want to come back.

He is the Good Shepherd.

?Why on earth would a loving creator create such a self-serving set up? Why not create beings that were already whole??

Why not give birth to 6ft tall adults, plant leeks rather than seeds, have off spring that need never learn anything new because they were born knowing all there is to know about string theory.

I can?t comment from a Christian view point but In Judaism it is believed that God created the earth and made a pact with mankind that they would continue the process of creation. God created life on earth and gave man free will to continue the process. Life is not perfect, the world is imperfect, and it is our job to improve on this.

Most people who are spiritual are seeking self improvement of some kind, are often more inclined to strive to better themselves in ways that improve the lot of others too.
That is why Jews are forbidden to decide not to have children and most practicing Jews leave an area of their home undecorated to remind them that the work of creation is incomplete.

It is important to feel as individuals that we have control of ourselves and free will and belief God doesn?t need to undermine this.

Worship, well ok if you want to, it's not for me personally, (seems too New Testament for me) God reminds us to keep to the path and reminds us that we are not special, mere mortals and we have a greater purpose in life than just getting by.

I'm sad swallowed that you feel I am using tactics and being superior. Far, far from it. I am not claiming to have the answers. I am not claiming to know it all, and to be 'mature'. No, no. I am on a journey as much as anyone, and merely wanted to share something of the hope I have. This is not in any way trying to force anything on anyone, I merely engaged in a discussion.

Actually I feel quite upset at your anger. It somehow feels more personal. SGB and her imaginary friend bashing I can quite happily banter with, but when I'm told I'm being defective and immature it's a little upsetting.

However, I stand firm on what I have so far said, because there is no where I have said anyone has got anything wrong.

swallowedafly I want to say something in reply but am not quite sure what. I recognise some of your anger actually - I have been in various denominations of christianity throughout my life and in retrospect have felt badly steamrollered, pressured, guilt-tripped and generally persuaded into conformity by some of them.

It was the more evangelical types that made me feel like that. There is huge anxiety if someone does not say the right things in the right language and behave in the way expected and required by the group, however "nonconformist" they think they are.

This is why I am now an Anglican as I feel nicely left alone after all the hurly burly of the more demonstrative churches. I'm sure many Christians would think I have lost it, but I can say the liturgy and believe it, and not have to ourwardly show anything for the benefit of the group. I now have a pavlovian reaction against certain songs and words and actions. I am probably going to end up a hermit. I have a problem with corporate worship, and yes, with the idea that God requires it.

I hope you don't think I am using any kind of tactic when I say that I hate all that pressure to conform, however kindly or anxiously or controllingly meant, but that I am able to hold on to the message of Christianity.

People say that you can't be a Christian in isolation, Probably true, in that Christians are supposed to be trying to make a difference with regard to truth and justice etc, but some churches can be very controlling and unwilling to accept people as they are.

Queen - Whole doesn't mean complete, it doesn't mean no change, or no learning. It just means you haven't left out an essential bit that you dangle like a bone in front of a dog - of course you don't have to sit up and beg, but that's how you get your food.

And that's just one point with that particular god. A god that shuns most of his creation because they weren't faithful and then plays favorites with his chosen people sounds more like a bitchy high school teen from an American sitcom.

There is so little about the character of most gods that's actually admirable.