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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hackney lap dancing clubs....help in signing a petition!!

176 replies

TheFeministParent · 09/12/2010 09:51

here

OP posts:
santasakura · 17/12/2010 03:34

yes but that has nothing to do with this thread, so why bring it up?
This thread is about the effect of the sex industry on the way women are perceived in society (they are regarded as The Sex Class) and the fact that society has been set up in such a way that the sex industry is a viable economic option for so many women

santasakura · 17/12/2010 03:37

that was garbled, I mean the existence of a sex industry reinforces the pernicious view society's has that this is what women are for
Can you imagine that some businesses entertain clients at lap-dancing clubs?! How can a woman be on an equal footing with men when her own kind are being paraded as meat

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 03:48

I see you repeating the usual radfem arguments, but still don't understand how a job can simultaneously exclude women, yet be staffed (mostly) by women. I thought this was a conversation, do we really have to refer back to the OP in every post? Because I have to say that when people join a thread this far in, and are still referring back to the very first post, they've probably missed a whole lot of interesting conversation.

santasakura · 17/12/2010 03:58

but the managers and owners are men.
That makes women chattel, don't you see?

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 04:17

Are the managers and owners all men? Would it be Ok if they were women?

Self-employed hairdressers rent chairs in salons; does that make them chattel?

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 04:19

I'm sorry, sakura, I'm really not having a go at you, btw. I think you're brilliant, but there are some things that require thought rather than just dogma.

I'm off to bed now anyway.

Much respect. :)

JessinAvalon · 17/12/2010 07:40

Larry brought up hairdressing earlier on. I don't see how cutting someone's hair is comparable to taking your clothes off to sexually stimulate another person. If you need to earn money to pay back the price of the rent, you do another hair cut, not push the boundaries of legality by offering 'extras' in a club.

I'm sure there are managers who are female but the ones I have come across are all male. I met one at a planning application hearing at which he was applying to open a ld club next door to a ld club which already operates from 8am to 6am. He got turned down (I would suggest that the area is already well served for lap dancing). He was a horrible man, truly horrible.

Ones I can think of off the top of my head:
Owner of Temptations chain-male (recently deceased)
Owner of Divas chain-male
Owner of Stringfellows-male
Owner of the For Your Eyes Only chain -male

Owner of Hooters franchise (not lap dancing but ethos is the same)-male

santasakura · 17/12/2010 08:46

Would it make any difference if the owners and managers were women? Yes, to a certain extent, it would.
If 50% of the owners were female 50% of the dancers/strippers were male, and 50% of the clients were female, it would make a difference because it would no longer be a gender issue, it would merely be a class issue.
Those in the upper "class" would be the owners, managers and middle-men, and those in the lower class would be the ones earning less, selling their bodies.
Now the class divide has a male/female division, whereby men tend to be of one class and women tend to be a member of the subordinate class.
So that begs the question of whether it's right for one class to make profit off the backs of another class, especially when it comes to bodily inegrity and sex.

I don't think this is a radfem argument anymore, TBH. I think it's gone mainstream and women who probably wouldn't regard themselves as feminist can see that there's something a bit off about the industry.

santasakura · 17/12/2010 08:50

Why was he so horrible, Jess?

StuffingGoldBrass · 17/12/2010 10:19

Hmm. The 'but it will go underground' argument is not entirely wrong - banning certain aspects of sex work tends to mean reduced safety and workplace rights for sex workers: if you are working in a banned, illegal industry you have little or no recourse if you are mistreated because you feel that making a complaint to the police will lead to you being nicked for working in said industry. Don't forget the ongoing problems faced by those women who have been trafficked into the industry - if they contact the police they get deported, which in many cases puts their lives in danger (if they have come from some vile backward dump that thinks a rape victim is 'dishonoured' and therefore should be shunned or killed).

I am also very bored of this whining about how the 'decent' women of Hackney live in terror of lapdancing clubs. I have friends who live in Hackney. I have spent quite a lot of time roaming about the streets of Hackney after dark. Muggers and gun-wielding drug-dealers are far more a source of anxiety than men with erections.
But the radfem argument against sex work and sexual display always goes right round the circle to join up with the right-wing patriarchal argument - that sex is disgusting, that women don't ever enjoy it, and that they have no right to make their own choices about their bodies and lives. The patriarchal line is that women should only have/perform sex for the benefit of men, the radfem line that women should stop having/performing sex for the benefit of other women. Both sides find the idea of female sexual autonomy frightening.

SproggingMerrilyOnHigh · 17/12/2010 10:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StuffingGoldBrass · 17/12/2010 11:30

What's wrong with taking money for something you enjoy and are good at, though? DOn't most people with performance skills like to be paid for exercising those skills?

santasakura · 17/12/2010 12:06

The "prude- you think sex is disgusting" accusation is getting a bit old and desperate, SGB.

I am absolutely sick of the gatekeeper model of female sexuality: this notion that women need to be bribed, with money or a date, before they give out sex/a strip/ a lapdance.

Women do all those things FOR FREE , they just DON'T DO IT WITH YOU YOU SAD BASTARD

JessinAvalon · 17/12/2010 12:20

Skills? The dancers on Strictly Come Dancing are skilled dancers. The "dancers" in lap dancing clubs are there to get their clothes off and rub on men's laps. I could do that!

I do have respect for pole dancers though. Very hard to do. But it's a shame that men go to watch women dancing round a phallic symbol and to see the girls' bodies and not to admire their dancing skills. If it was about the dancing, they wouldn't be doing it in their underwear and more men would pole dance.

Sakura - why was he horrible? He was slimy and hypocritical. He tried to be charming but looked at me with his head cocked to one side, eyes looking out from under his eyelids like he was trying to flirt with me but all the while being incredibly patronising. He told me he would see me in church on Sunday implying I was part of some religious moral sect. This guy is a Muslim, in his 50s with daughters, and apparently his Muslim neighbours are horrified by what he's been trying to do (set up a lap dancing club with the intention of knocking it in the one next door to make a super-club and run it as a brothel too).

He's set up a few businesses in the city where I live and let them all fold.

He told me that he thought I was an ex-dancer and that was why I was so against them (?!). And apparently he also wants to open up a lap dancing club because he likes having young women fawning over him.

His "plan" was to run the place as a restaurant until 9pm at which point the place would turn into a lap dancing club.

So there you are....having a romantic meal with your other half and at 9pm the candles and the table gets whipped away and the poles are wheeled out. Yeah right!

The slight flaw in his application was that the plan didn't include a kitchen so quite where they were going to cook the food, we don't know! It was all clearly a front and thankfully the planning committee threw it out and the planning inspectorate upheld the decision after he took it to appeal. This is despite the chair of our licensing committee who was on the planning committee that day voting in favour of it (he is in favour of the sex industry).

It was claimed in the application that it would regenerate that part of the city and would attract the gay and lesbian communities. Yes, of course, because gay men and lesbians love hanging around that bastion of Neanderthal masculinity - a lap dancing club.

There's a guy who runs some lap dancing clubs in the South West and every time I hear him on the radio I feel like I need a shower. One of his clubs had its licence removed because it was breaching its licence conditions by offering "full body contact". It went to appeal and operated without a licence in the meantime for a year. In that year, it built a special "full body contact" area in the club. Police officers went in one evening with headcams and there is footage of one guy in the specially built area with his head buried in a naked lap dancer's breasts. The pair both panic when they see the officer! The owner and the manager are both sat there in the club arrogantly thinking they can get away with whatever they want. The licence got turned down on appeal and the club has closed.

He could open it as a normal club but why bother when he's lost his main source of income - the girls who paid £50 to £100 a night to work there. He's raking in thousands every week just by charging them to come to work.

The owner still whines to anyone who'll listen that it wasn't his fault, that it was local campaigners' fault, that the police had a vendetta against him, that women have been put out of work. The only person who lost him his licence was him because he failed, continually, to adhere to the licence conditions. They were told not to offer full body contact "during performances" so they just offered before and after instead!

And if that club is offering full body contact, the club up the road will want to do the same in order to compete.

As for the argument about well run and badly run clubs, the more I know about lap dancing, the more I disagree with them. I wouldn't use the word "well run" in conjunction with an industry which profits from women being treated as disposable sexual objects. The industry, as it is now, is tightly regulated but there are all sorts of problems associated with it - sex trafficking, prostitution, sexual assault. And the sense of entitlement that it gives to men is the worst outcome of all, IMO.

santasakura · 17/12/2010 12:29

LOL LOL @ "it would attract the gay and lesbian communities" ... of all the things I've ever heard .. LOL

JessinAvalon · 17/12/2010 12:41

I know...you should have seen the rest of the application! It would have had definite comedy value if it wasn't so disturbing that some people actually fall for this stuff, including the chair of our licensing committee - a fairly young Lib Dem, pro sex industry councillor.

None of the guys in the industry that I have come across aren't in it because they really care about women or people. They are in it because they want to make a lot of money and, at the same time, they get to be surrounded by girls much younger than them who are dependent on them for work - can you imagine the ego boost if you are a balding 50 something short arsed little creep?

If these guys really wanted to contribute towards the local economy (as is always claimed), they would set up a normal restaurant or bar, and not one that operates as a bar/restaurant til 9pm when it becomes a lap dancing club. Hooters could have been a normal bar but no - the franchise owner probably fancied the idea of surrounding himself with young women in little tops and shorts who had to act with deference towards him.

I used to think there was something in the argument about agency and free choice when it came to lap dancing, but the more I hear about them, the more I've learnt that the power/control dynamic is most definitely not tipped in the performer's favour, no matter what they claim (unless they are out of the industry, in which case they might admit otherwise).

JessinAvalon · 17/12/2010 12:41

"None of the guys in the industry that I have come across are in it because they really care about women or people."

Beachcomber · 17/12/2010 14:01

Thanks for your detailed and informed posts here Jess - they are really interesting.

Also a massive WELL DONE for the work you do!

MrsClown · 17/12/2010 14:02

Sorry I have not read all these posts. If banning them would send them underground, lets make brothels legal (they already operate in the form of 'massage parlours) etc. If it goes underground then it is up to the police to deal with but at least it would not be looked upon as normal. I will never accept that the sex trade should be on my high street. Even Peter Stringfellow admitted it is part of the sex trade! We should be encouraging young women to aim for empowering jobs not just being toys for mens enjoyment, we need to move on from that, quickly.

JessinAvalon, totally with your comments.

David51 · 17/12/2010 15:42

Do Hackney Council's plans only apply to lapdancing clubs or do they cover other types of strip joint?

The reason I ask is that until recently the pubs around Old Street & Shoreditch were notorious for employing strippers, which meant there was nowhere for women or couples to go for a drink. If there's going to be a zero-tolerance policy surely it should take account of pubs, to make sure this situation doesn't happen again.

JessinAvalon · 17/12/2010 16:13

Hi David
Yes it will do unless they are exempt from having to apply for a licence because of the frequency of the stripping (eg once a month).

The government was lobbied hard not to water down the legislation by including this exemption but unfortunately it was kept in the sex entertainment venue legislation. Even the name was watered down from 'sex encounter establishment' which was the original proposal.

David51 · 17/12/2010 16:48

Thanks Jess. Unfortunately I missed the petition deadline but I'll have a look at the Object website and see if there's anything else I can do to help

StuffingGoldBrass · 17/12/2010 18:38

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JessinAvalon · 17/12/2010 19:50

@Beachcomber-thanks for your comment earlier.

@David-there is a toolkit on the Object website which guides people on lobbying their council to adopt the legislation. If you would like help, feel free to pm me. We've just been through the process in my city.

@StuffingGoldBrass-you may be interested in this thread which was about women's views on their partner going to a lap dancing club. Sakura explains it well above too. It is not that we dislike sex. It is that we dislike the commodification of sexual encounters. I personally object to the acceptability of men paying for a stranger to shove her crotch in his face and, in my relationship, I was expected to put up with it because 'that's what men do'. Anyway, I won't type it all out again because I explained my position on the other thread a few days ago. But it was that experience that led me to feminism. I had oblivious up to that point but it was that one event which opened my eyes and now I can't put the blinkers back on, much as I would like to.

JessinAvalon · 17/12/2010 19:51

I had been oblivious...I meant to say.