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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hackney lap dancing clubs....help in signing a petition!!

176 replies

TheFeministParent · 09/12/2010 09:51

here

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 15/12/2010 15:47

Perhonen, the problem is that lots of women have bad experiences in lap dancing clubs - do you dismiss all of them?

I think you probably know very little about lap dancing in reality - certainly your posts here suggest so.

Before you ask, I have a fair amount of experience of lap dancing environments. I would prefer not to explain why as I do not wish the info to be on MN. However none of the experience I have is in the UK (I don't live there).

However, this report, commissioned by Glasgow City Council, suggests that things are exactly the same in the UK.

I would urge you to read it in its entirety.

Beachcomber · 15/12/2010 16:06

The report I linked to is quite long but here are some snippets.

"Dancers are self employed and therefore have no employment rights. They pay a fee to work in the clubs. The private dance is the only legitimate way for the dancers to make money."

"Dancers feel pressurised to secure dances with as many of the customers as possible, especially if they are in debt to the club."

"There was no evidence of direct coercion of the dancers by management into working in the club, or providing sexual services, but a number of factors contribute to the possibility of the dancers being pressurised into offering, or agreeing to, sexual services without direct instruction from management."

"This study revealed the complex process and set of conditions in which dancers become more susceptible to requests or suggestions to sell sex. The lack of employment rights, the experience of accumulating debt, expectations of the customers and fierce competition create a climate where the selling and buying of sex on the premises becomes more likely."

"There was some evidence of pressure on the dancers from management to create an impression of sexual availability. Several of the dancers stated that a number of customers assume they will agree to provide sexual services."

"Ten dances were observed during the visit to The Flying Scotsman. Every dancer, during their performances, displayed the inside of their genitalia by spreading their legs above the customers? heads. This seemed to be an established part of the routine. As one customer put it:
What?s the point of seeing a strip show and not getting a bit of fanny? The fun part is seeing her c**t. You can open The Sun if you just want tits"

"At a licence renewal application for Spearmint Rhino26, police from Charing Cross Clubs and Vice Unit disclosed intelligence gathered whilst on undercover visits. An officer told the court he had 'grave concerns' about illegality in the club, as dancers had allowed customers to touch them, sometimes intimately, in contravention of the club's entertainment licence. He said that the undercover officers had been offered sex in a private room by two dancers for £500"

"Plainclothes police officers had visited the three clubs as a result of intelligence suggesting that sexual services were available. Whilst in the club they observed women dancing in a sexually suggestive manner, who then offered the officers sex at a venue outside the club on the condition that they purchased two bottles of champagne at £80 per bottle."

"Police forces have conducted a number of investigations into misconduct and criminal activity within lap-dancing clubs during the last eight years. In 1997, three Lithuanian women were deported after being trafficked into the UK to work in an Edinburgh lap-dancing club32.
In the same year, the owner of Scotland's first lap-dancing club, The Fantasy Bar, was charged with rape, brothel keeping and living off illegal earnings. The local police force unsuccessfully applied for a suspension of the club?s license on the grounds that ?the licensee is no longer fit to hold a licence, on the grounds of public safety?."

"In 2004, police officers investigated a Birmingham lap-dance club after it was discovered that a 15-year-old girl was working at Spearmint Rhino Extreme; club owners accused rivals of ?setting them up?34. The council were quoted as admitting that the restriction on under-18s should have been made a condition of public entertainment licences issued to lap-dance clubs."

"The dancers are paid in tips only after each performance by means of a jug collection."

"All dancers interviewed paid money to the owners in order to rent a space to dance; the amount varied across the clubs. Although the women are self-employed, they are required to perform pole and cabaret dances in the main club area at the request of management."

"The VIP room at Legs? n? Co was supervised by a security guard, who remained in the room when it was being used. However, one of the dancers said that there were ?two or three? women who were known to offer sexual services, and that when these women used the room there was no security. The room had no CCTV camera. London Metropolitan University revealed that the room contained a small bowl filled with several mixed condoms. During the course of the evening eight individual men used the VIP room."

I could go on but I'm getting a bit downhearted.

Perhonen · 15/12/2010 16:09

A lot of women have bad experiences everywhere.

That is not limited to Lap dancing, it's a problem throughout the world, in every industry.

Question my knowledge all you like, I can assure you I have enough experience to know that what I am saying is perfectly logical, and what it comes down to is..

..Lap dancing clubs do not need to be closed down...

and yet again, all your report is showing is that in some establishments the women need more protection...

Dancing, naked, or close to naked, in exchange for money, as paid employment does not need to be stopped, it needs to be better regulated.

Beachcomber · 15/12/2010 16:34

So what do you say to the fact that the current regulations (such as no touching) are routinely flouted?

The women are not employed - they are not in paid employment. They pay to work at the clubs.

Have you read the report?

JessinAvalon · 15/12/2010 17:23

14 yr old girl found lap dancing in WSM

It's not regulation that's needed but a change in attitude and that will only come when we get them off the high street and preferably gone altogether.

Beachcomber · 15/12/2010 17:42

After 2 minutes of googling news for lap dancing.

Sounds like a nice place

Beachcomber · 15/12/2010 17:52

If we are to believe the claim that 'women's bodies are not for sale', why is it that women with black bodies are treated differently and earn less?

www.thescavenger.net/feminism-a-pop-culture/black-exotic-dancers-undervalued-and-underpaid-69223.html

"Based on the racism I experienced working as a Black exotic dancer, I wanted to know what happens when one is considered not good enough to be objectified.

Many White, middle-class feminists (both those who are pro- and those who are anti-sex work) often assume all women are afforded the same opportunities for employment in the sex industry.

This just isn?t so."

tabouleh · 15/12/2010 19:32

Beachcomber thanks for linking to that report I will have to find time to read it more fully.

I noticed it mentioned NatWest having a corporate account with a lapdancing club Shock. So the report was in 2004.

Anyone know if that is still the case. Is there a way of doing a freedom of information act request on that sort of thing?

I am interested in attacking the use of lapdancing clubs by city instituitions from a corporate governance approach - i.e. will companies commit to a public policy on non-use of them.

The other thing is does anyone know Jess? if there is a list of councils anywhere together with what stage they are at with their decisions about licencing re SEVs and nil caps etc?

tabouleh · 15/12/2010 19:35

The other thing is; does anyone know (eg Jess?), if there is a list of councils anywhere together with what stage they are at with their decisions about licencing re SEVs and nil caps etc?

shoddy punctuation changes posts reading

mrsruffallo · 15/12/2010 19:44

I think banning these clubs means they will go underground with worse conditions and no regulating authority.
By all means put more conditions regarding the number of places that are allowed to open, or the advertising or the opening hours but a blanket ban is not something I would support

Beachcomber · 15/12/2010 19:52

You're welcome Tabouleh.

Looking at the Object site, I think the testimony of this women is very interesting in its analysis.

www.object.org.uk/files/Testimony%20_%20Lucy.pdf

You would have to change just about everything about lap dancing clubs in order to regulate them properly. And even then they would still be horribly sexist, ageist and racist.

Perhonen · 15/12/2010 20:55

Beachcomber Wed 15-Dec-10 16:34:17

So what do you say to the fact that the current regulations (such as no touching) are routinely flouted?

That is exactly the problem, Beachcomber. the problem is that establishments are able to get away with things like this, largely because there is an awful lot of controversy and conflict surrounding them.

By all means convince yourselves the only way to ensure women are safe is by refusing them the ability to continue this profession but it simply won't work.

Look at prostitution, for example (not that I believe they are akin, but it's close enough to consider the consequences of making lap dancing a criminal activity) Do we want to turn this into a profession that is underground?

You know you won't win the fight to get rid of the clubs anyway, it won't happen.

Women should unite, to protect themselves in the best way possible, that is actually feasible. Starting with ensuring every working woman being granted the respect she deserves, and afforded the working conditions we would expect in every other career.

JessinAvalon · 15/12/2010 23:05

Hi Tabouleh
I did start compiling a list a few months ago which I posted on the Object forum. It does need updating though.

If you pm me your email (might still have it somewhere) I'll send it to you.

Anna from Object has asked if I'll keep it updated but I've been too busy to do it. I will do if I get time in the new year though.

Please sign up to Object! It would be great to have you on board.

Beachcomber · 16/12/2010 07:57

"the problem is that establishments are able to get away with things like this, largely because there is an awful lot of controversy and conflict surrounding them."

Sorry but I think this is a very odd way of approaching the issue.

No touching rules are flouted because the very nature of lap dancing and the way lap dancing clubs are set up, encourages touching.

The women have to compete to get work - so what do they do? They break the rules in order to go a bit further than each other in order to earn a 20 quid dance FFS. What happens if the club gets caught flouting rules? The girl is sacked.

Like I said - you appear to know little about lap dancing if you think it is possible to regulate against its harms.

Have the read the report yet?

You are right to link lapdancing and prostitution - lap dancing is a form of prostitution and is very often a front for the selling of women.

As I said earlier "You would have to change just about everything about lap dancing clubs in order to regulate them properly. And even then they would still be horribly sexist, ageist and racist."

How are you going to regulate for equal opportunities in a lap dancing club? How are you going to ensure that sexual harassment laws are respected (hint: you can't, lap dancing by its very nature flouts them). How are you going to ensure that women who get older/are pregnant/experience a bodily change are still able to earn a living?

Anyway, with all the regulation in the world you cannot change the fact that lap dancing is detrimental to gender equality and that the women working in it are perceived as a pair of breasts and some genitals. Read some testimonies of lap dancers and listen to what they say about having to get drunk/take drugs/disassociate in order to do their jobs. Listen to them say how it feels to be objectified/work under a pseudonym/act and pretend to be someone different all the time.

The defeatist idea that we have to put up with lap dancing clubs in a civilised society because other wise they will 'go underground', just sounds like the oppressed talking to me.

Fuck that!

Iceland has done it - where there is a will, there is a way. People need to actually see the harms, care about them and get off their arses to say 'no more'. Of course it can be done.

sethstarofbethlehemsmum · 16/12/2010 10:05

the 'if we ban it it will just go underground' argument is one of the most illogical arguments I have seen to get regularly repeated and believed.

pro-lapdancing club people are always telling us that people who go to, own and work in lapdancing clubs are perfectly ordinary upstanding members of society. OK. So all these upright respectable people aren't going to have the slightest problem with the fact that what they do is now illegal? Really?
you really think City firms are going to entertain clients at illegal lapdancing clubs? that women are going to be cool with their fiances going to illegal clubs for their stag nights?

the fact is, dodgy establishments that flout the rules already exist. We can improve regulation of the above-board ones and they will still exist. Having a large number of legal ones does not magically stop the dodgy ones. What it does instead is, as well as creating a huge market of people who are happy to go to these clubs (or succumb to peer group pressure in doing so, or have to for professional reasons if their firm is entertaining clients at them), provide cover for the dodgy ones.

it is useful to look at the analogy with countries which have legal regulated prostitution. What they don't find is that they then have no underground prostitution: they get an increased amount of underground prostitution as well as the above-board stuff.

do you think Iceland has a huge problem with underground lapdancing clubs, now it has banned them?!

sethstarofbethlehemsmum · 16/12/2010 10:07

I meant to add: banning them won't make the dodgy underground ones magically disappear either - it would be very naive to think it would. But the argument that it is the worst thing we could do because then the legal ones would simply go underground is nonsense.

Beachcomber · 16/12/2010 10:32

Exactly ITA with seth.

Allowing the proliferation of legal clubs attracts all manner of sex predators to an area and it also attracts an underground market of prostituted women. It is like the thin edge of the wedge IYSWIM. (For example it is well documented that pimps frequent lap dancing clubs in order to groom women for prostitution).

Doing the opposite, sends out a message that the commodification of female sexuality and the objectification of women, will not be tolerated. Why will it not be tolerated? - Because it is discriminatory and inhumane and has no place in a fair, civilised society.

I also agree that the argument that these nice, normal, upstanding people who provide a service like any other, will break the law if not allowed to continue their activities, is illogical.

Are we really to be held to ransom by the idea that if men don't get to look at boobies and fannies whenever they want to, the world as we know it will come to an end? What a lot of patriarchal bullshit that it!

Men must have legal women provided for them otherwise they will demand illegal women. WTF?

Is this equality or is it blackmail and abuse of power, status, money and privilege? What sort of message is that for one half of the population to be sending out to the other?

"Men must be able to perve as and when they want to." I don't think so.

MrsClown · 16/12/2010 13:21

Sorry Ticklish, you obviously misunderstood my point about the loud mouthed minority and how you dont see how it can apply to bloggers (?loud). It is a metaphor. You did reduce yourself to personal insults. I debate all sorts of subjects and NEVER would I call someone elses opinin rediculous as I think all are entitled to their beliefs.

santasakura · 16/12/2010 13:27

"do you think Iceland has a huge problem with underground lapdancing clubs, now it has banned them?!"

Well, exactly. The existence of legal, 'above board' lapdancing clubs does not suddenly negate the existence of dodgy clubs. In fact, as you say, the above board clubs can be used as a front for the dodgy ones.

I didn't know the first lap-dancing club opened in 1995. That's really interesting because i was 15 then and was raised with the impression they'd always existed. magazines, tv told me they were empowering...
we really were in a backlash against women during the nineties, weren't we

Beachcomber from that report:

"The majority of dancers interviewed expressed ambivalence towards the customers"

i wonder if the men know this. Men like Larry think that twenty year olds want to be dancing for him; he seems to think that the fact he's paying them is insignificant.

JessinAvalon · 16/12/2010 14:17

From what I've read (OneAngryGirl, Object testimonies, other reports) it seems lap dancing clubs breed nothing but disrespect between the sexes. The performers hate and despise the men and the men obviously cannot respect the women. Some of the comments left on the recent newspaper articles about Hooters girls illustrate that (was it not a man on here who referred to "bitches with big tits"?).

Pretty unhealthy all round, I'd say. And yes, quite funny that the men are labouring under the impression that they are god's gift (the fact that money has changed hands doesn't seem to occur to them).

sethstarofbethlehemsmum · 16/12/2010 14:48

my impression of some such men (see Larry's posts on the other thread, for instance) is not that they are not factoring money in in this case, more that they have an overly cynical view of other relationships in which money has changed hands and are missing how much sincerity there actually is in normal human interaction: ie rather than seeing a higher-than-normal level of insincerity in the 'woman pretending to fancy the man' they assume that there is an equal level of insincerity in the hairdresser complimenting the client, the therapist behaving in a caring way towards the patient, etc.

I know sometimes blokes simply haven't thought it through and they assume it is genuine but I think sometimes it's just part of a wider cynicism that holds that everything is for sale.

santasakura · 17/12/2010 00:36

that is so true. I've looked at some of the mail order bride forums , and the men really believe that human relationships between men and women come down to how much "bang for your buck" you can get. They actually use phrases like that as they search for their future wife Confused
Many of them are on their third mail order bride, and relate the shock they experienced when it became apparent that the first two were only interested in their money/visa.
It doesn't cross their mind that they are buying a woman, and that this is a little unusual to say the least in relations between the sexes, and that that is why they have to search abroad in impoverished countries to find such women... They have to go to great lengths to find a woman who can be bought and yet they are somehow convinced that this is a normal interaction for males and females.

I think a lot of it boils down to the fact that women are not supposed to have a sexuality of their own. Some men simply can't comprehend that women are just as visual as them, for example, that women are highly selective of their mates (perhaps more selective than men for biological reasons) . When you bring money to the table that naturally selectiveness (natural selection?) becomes skewed. I think the patriarchy knows that if women can't be bought, their opportunity for sex will be greatly decreaed (or all the fit, kind men will get lots of sex and the losers will get none)

StuffingGoldBrass · 17/12/2010 00:50

Interesting that those of you discussing the protest against Object think it's all about the vicar rather than the actual strippers and dancers protesting the idea of having their livelihoods taken away.
Oh but I forgot, women in the sex industry can't possibly think for themselves, can they?

santasakura · 17/12/2010 01:18

yes, they can think for themselves- why on earth did you say that? By going for the best economic option available to them, they are "thinking for themselves".
Whether it's right that society has been set up in such a way that the sex industry is the best economic option open to a lot of women is the question to be discussed here...

And it does do so much damage to relationships between men and women. Beachcomber's report shows that the women are ambivalent towards their customers, which means that although they know the job is better than working on a check out, it's still a nasty job...

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 17/12/2010 03:01

Radfems quite routinely tell strippers/lapdancers/prostitutes (NB, not "prostituted women", a quite different group) that they don't understand their own abuse. Surely you've seen that? There have been threads recently where prostitutes have said quite clearly that they are happy in their work and yet they were told they don't understand their own oppression and are deluded. Same thing on this thread, and many others.