Hackney lap dancing clubs....help in signing a petition!!

[TheFeministParent]

here

Ah, I see that 'CAAN' appear to be confused that this discussion is about morality rather than equality.

They also say on their main page;

"CAAN is a growing grassroots network of individuals and organisations fighting for the freedom of adults to view, or engage in consensual activities in private."

Ok, fine, good for them - what has that got to do with buying and selling female sexuality in public?

Why do people confuse consent and freedom with commodification and inequality so often in this debate?

Maybe because not every stripper is forced into stripping, kicking and screaming, because of their desperate inability to earn money elsewhere.

I have a couple of friends who have worked as strippers and both were entirely comfortable with it. The notion that the men paying to watch these acts (which is exactly what they are doing...acting) are the ones in control is quite laughable. I've been to their workplaces, I've sat and had drinks with people they work with whilst they go off and do a dance then come back to our table, I've seen, firsthand, guys that couldn't respect the 'no touch' rule be immediately thrown out of the club.

I don't have any statistics, nor do I wish to find some as you can guarantee both you and I could find some to support our own views, that's the way statistics work, after all, but I can assure you the customer paying for the act is the person least in control in any decent establishment.

What we should be looking at is a way to make these establishments safer, not to get rid of them completely!

Beachcomber Tue 14-Dec-10 10:45:34
Why do people confuse consent and freedom with commodification and inequality so often in this debate?

...and why do people confuse fighting for women's rights with taking those rights away?

You seem to forget that these women don't want you to fight for them, they don't want to be judged as needing some jumped up saviour to come and rescue them from the nasty industry, they just want to be granted the respect that every human deserves.

Perhonen, the reason these men are in control is they have the money. I work and it is my employer (the one with the money) who controls me. Women's bodies should not be for sale, certainly not on the high street. If you think that is all women are worth then that is your problem, I dont.

Their bodies are not for sale. The act is. The dance. Just like the act is for sale when you go to a theatre, a show, a rock concert, a comedian etc.

It is entertainment, maybe not entertainment you enjoy, but entertainment nonetheless.

As for your control theory, these men are customers, not employers. Are the customers in control of waiters and waitresses in restuarants? Barmaids in pubs? Till advisors in a clothing store? No.

The employer is the person who owns the establishment, and if his establishment is not fit to work in then it should be closed down, just like any other establishment, but if it is run well, with careful consideration for his staff then it should be allowed to continue to operate. (Please note; I said 'he' regarding the owner, this is not always the case, some establishments are, ofc, managed and owned by women).

Lastly, your employer does not control you, he offers you a trade, your work, for his cash. You choose whether or not you wish to accept that, therefore, you not he, are in control.

Well said Perhonen.

Perhonen - you seem to be saying on your last sentence that the working class have all the power in society because they provide the labour. Do you really mean that, because its rather an unusual view?

And what happens when the working class withdraw their labour? The whole country grinds to a halt. That's pretty powerful.

well that's called a revolution, OLKN.
I think we will see the beginnings of one this century

but before the revolution, lets concentrate on the fact the working classes have no power, even less so these days because companies like McDonalds discourage unions. ANd it will get worse as we see an ever-changing, inter-changeable workforce,zero job security...

And women have never been properly represented by labour unions, which is in fact the only reason women have been employed in their droves (factories, check-out) - because powerful employers know that there's no point hiring a man when you can get a woman for half the price or less. Labour union leaders never included women in their demonstrations, and as a result they priced themselves out of the market.

It all boils down to the fact that women's labour is worth less than mens, and women do the jobs the men won't touch

OLKN - yes of course that's powerful if it was done en masse. As has been said that's revolution. Haven't seen too many of those though.

In the meantime, people remove their labour and are quickly replaced with people who will do it cheaper, with less protection, in worse conditions etc.

So the woman working in the lap dancing club removes her labour for whatever reason, perhaps due to poor conditions, being asked to do extras, the emotional impact, then another woman is employed until she has enough, then another woman is employed ad infinitum. The representation of lap dancing as an empowering thing, the mainstreaming of lap dancing imagery, and the ways in which young women are encouraged to see their bodies and sexuality makes sure there is no shortage of women who buy into this.

The idea that all the power in our society sits with the workers is an usual one. That is has the potential to, sure, that's what lots of theories are based on. But that people providing labour are actually in control

I was thinking more along the lines of a strike than revolution, tbh. If a particular club has shitty working conditions, a line up of their dancers outside in the street with placards would get plenty of attention.

but they would just be replaced and not be able to get work anywhere else. And there is no effective union for lapdancers who would all walk out of the other clubs in support.
and the customers who are prepared to go to lapdancing clubs in the first place are for the most part not going to say 'oh, an unethical club, I will switch my custom to another that is more ethical!'

Exactly Seth. Lap dancers are also generally self-employed which conveniently limits their rights in that way.

They would just be replaced and not be able to get work elsewhere?

You really believe that? One of my friends worked in a club she felt was 'seedy' she didn't feel respected, nor protected, so she left. Walked straight into a job in a respectable establishment. By day she was an accountant... (she actually dances three evenings a week now since she left her accountancy job after her maternity leave because it works better for her and her family than the 9-5 grind she had to do as an accountant...)

What makes you think these women are unemployable anywhere else?

and

"and the customers who are prepared to go to lapdancing clubs in the first place are for the most part not going to say 'oh, an unethical club, I will switch my custom to another that is more ethical!'"

Why not? Do you honestly believe every man who enjoys seeing women dance provocatively has no morals?

This thread seems to be full of people judging women for dancing and men for watching it purely based on comic book stereotypes. It is not necessarily jeering, leery old men drooling over oh so sad little girls with Daddy issues.

Quite often it is decent, respectable men that enjoy the sight of a woman dancing provocatively and are willing to pay these strong and perfectly comfortable women to perform for them.

Ticklish. For me strip joints are not a morality issue. I have no problem with nudity. For me, it is an equality issue. Why are womens naked bodies being paraded around but not mens. I do not understand why the whole world has to be run to suit men. You say that men also leer and jeer outside bars, from taxis etc. Does this mean we should provide other places (strip clubs) to do that from. Does it not matter that women cant walk in some places without receiving that reception. We should all be able to walk around without anyone invading our space.

I was speaking to my son's 17 year old girlfriend the other day on this subject and she said that having to wait for her bus outside a strip joint when she had finished an evening shift was humiliating and made her feel small and intimidated. I asked my son if he would feel the same having to wait outside somewhere where you knew women were engaged in that kind of entertainment and they were bigger and stronger than you. He said that he wouldnt want to do it and would feel intimidated and scared. He said he is glad he doesnt have to put up with what women have to.

By the way Perhonen, I do not have any choice whether or not I work, unless my family dont need to eat or have a roof over their head!!!!

Also, if I go into a restaurant of course the waiter/waitress has to do what is expected. God only knows what is expected in a strip joint, I can only imagine. I have also discussed this with some ex strippers and they have all said that the ones who do not want to offer extras earn less.

The thing I find amazing is that some people are ok with the fact that part of the sex trade is on our high street. No matter what you call it it is part of the sex trade. It shouldnt be seen as normal. It has always existed but we dont need it ramming down our throats!

Why doesnt it bother you that men do not get exploited in the same way.

Perhonen - perhaps you didn't read what I wrote properly: I was talking about what would be likely to happen if they led a strike without the protection of a union. Just leaving a job quietly rather than staying and fighting the conditions is not quite the same.

and I am sure there are a few men for whom the working conditions are important, but I don't believe for a moment they constitute the majority.

The link between protesting about labour conditions and then having difficulty getting employment is not something to do with working in a lap dancing club. It is to do with being branded as a trouble maker. stuff like this, nothing to do with what job, but the impact of challenging labour conditions in general.

And again, it is not to do with whether men who go to lap dancing clubs are more or less ethical. There are unethical practices in lots of different industries and I don't see them closing down either. Some people care about ethics, some don't. So if a lap dancing club is unethical the some people will still go to it.

And shifting from one 'comic book stereotype' to another doesn't not represent the discussion at all. It is a lot more complex than that, both ways.

I think the following article says quite a lot about why I think the idea that lapdancing is a job like any other/just an act/entertainment/something a women should have the 'right' to do as a non-oppressed person, etc is a load of hooey.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/19/gender.uk

You might not have a choice whether you work or not MrsClown, but you do have a choice as to where you work, and, within reason, which job you do.

AliceWorld, I'm not sure I can see where your points are relevant? Things you are talking about are relative to all industries, yes? Which means the bearing they have on lapdancing clubs in particular doesn't really have any connection with whether or not these clubs should be allowed to exist.

Your article, Beachcomber, is biased. Written by someone who had a bad experience. With some statistics being presented as a link, with no other deciding factors taken into consideration. For all we know ten sex offenders could have been released from prison, there could have been a new sex offenders hostel in the area, there could've been more people actually caught and therefore more convictions due to a new initiative or new detectives, there are always missing points in statistical analysis so your article doesn't actually show anything..

sethstarofbethlehemsmum, you're right that Lapdancers don't have the protection of a union etc, but that just means more should be done to protect them in what is a LEGAL profession, not that the job should become obsolete.

They were relevant to this you said:

"Lastly, your employer does not control you, he offers you a trade, your work, for his cash. You choose whether or not you wish to accept that, therefore, you not he, are in control."

Followed by this I said

"Perhonen - you seem to be saying on your last sentence that the working class have all the power in society because they provide the labour. Do you really mean that, because its rather an unusual view?"

Followed by a general discussion amongst a few of us about class politics, revolution, labour issues.

This then led to you framing it as an attack on individual lap dancers, implying that they wouldn't be able to get a job for moral reasons. I was clarifying that this wasn't the point, they could struggle for sticking their neck above the parapet, not for being lap dancers.

You're quite right, it doesn't relate directly to whether clubs should exist or not. It had moved to something related.

Oh, also, to address..

"MrsClown Wed 15-Dec-10 12:26:38

Ticklish. For me strip joints are not a morality issue. I have no problem with nudity. For me, it is an equality issue. Why are womens naked bodies being paraded around but not mens."

They are, just not as much, you know why? Because the demand is not as great. The chippendales are more famous than any female strip group I've ever heard of!

There is also a flip side to men paying to watch women dance, men paying to be humiliated by women, but because of the nature of dungeons and the BDSM environment being even less accepted than the lapdancing establishments, you just don't see it.