Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hackney lap dancing clubs....help in signing a petition!!

176 replies

TheFeministParent · 09/12/2010 09:51

here

OP posts:
JessinAvalon · 12/12/2010 13:12

It doesn't seem to have been a problem in Iceland.

And the majority of the population now support the ban. It was aimed at changing attitudes as much as anything else and it seems to have been successful.

There'll always be problems in these clubs whether they're underground or not.

The Capricorn Club shut down because it was offering prostitution on the premises.

In Weston-Super-Mare, 'Shadows' club had its licence removed for having a 14 year old employed as a dancer.

In Oldham, a club was shut down when it was found to be acting as a front for a brothel.

In Plymouth, a club had additional conditions attached to its licence when it was found to be breaching its licence conditions (the performers were touching the clients - only discovered when a police officer went to investigate a fight that happened outside the club and saw CCTV footage of girls touching customers).

The Dispatches documentary broadcast in October 2008 showed undercover footage in lap dancing clubs up and down the country. Prostitution was on offer in several and licensing conditions were being breached in all the clubs.

One featured in Newquay - Halos - never had its licence reviewed even though footage of the performers "touching" (ahem) the customers was shown on national television.

Another club in Newquay recently had its licence removed after it was found to be employing an underage dancer, dancers were offering "full body contact", and drugs were found on the premises. However, it was able to operate for a year without a licence because it had lodged an appeal (since lost).

There are many more examples from the last year or two but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

At least banning them will make it less acceptable than it is now for men to buy a woman's body in a club and will go some way towards changing attitudes. I'm sure we'll catch up one day but we're a long way off yet.

JessinAvalon · 12/12/2010 13:15

Iceland bans strip clubs

HelenRosie · 12/12/2010 13:17

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/dec/10/strippers-vicar-sex-shop-ban

Moving them underground makes them more unsafe for the women working there.

JessinAvalon · 12/12/2010 13:21

So we go for the easy option and keep them on the high street with councils having the option of reviewing licences every year or two?

In the Nordic countries, their crackdown on the sex industry has led to a huge change in attitudes. We are way behind in the UK.

JessinAvalon · 12/12/2010 13:22

Hmm...the Guardian article just expresses a vicar's opinion that clubs will go underground and will be more unsafe the women working there!

piko · 12/12/2010 13:25

Is it not simple if you don't like them then don't go to them.

JessinAvalon · 12/12/2010 13:32

Piko - I answered that point in an earlier post (about half an hour ago). I'm afraid it isn't that simple.

Ticklish1 · 12/12/2010 18:33

Jessin, I totally agree with your points regarding the promotion of it - now just is not on. The women you describe in Newquay are letting the side down somewhat behaving like that, I agree. And no woman should have to alter her route home. But don't stupid people behave in similar ways outside non-stripping pubs and clubs? I think if we want to sign a petition of any sort it is to get the horrible drunken letches from outside of ALL kinds of establishments to sobre up and shut up!

I'm not trying to annoy people up on here - one woman suggested I'd called her frigid. Far from it- I just like to consider both sides of things. Is this really about stripping being exploitative (as if it is, it would need to be unquestionably so, rather than just the opinion of some that it is) or is it an issue about our attitudes to sex and sexuality? If a woman wants to strip and a man wants to see it, is that not an entirely mutual relationship of power and status? Is it just that we value jobs where women use thir brains more than their bodies?

Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate and am happy to be persuaded I'm wrong but so far no-one has said anything much to convince me in favour of the other side.

JessinAvalon · 12/12/2010 19:18

Hi Ticklish
I nearly didn't read your response as I am so used to getting abuse on this subject but glad I did.

I posted earlier on about why I disagree with lap dancing clubs.

I felt the same as you until about 3 years ago. Guys from work went along to them and I was curious about them but that was all. I did feel some discomfort when guys I knew, well paid, educated men, discussed the women they paid to strip, their body parts, etc, and all this happening behind their wives' backs but it didn't affect me personally so I didn't worry about it too much.

One guy in work told me about going to a strip club not long after his wife had had their longed for baby. She'd put on a bit of weight and was desperately trying to lose it. I asked him about the experience quite curiously and I was indifferent at the time but I do remember feeling very sorry for his wife, whom I knew was feeling vulnerable. I asked him if he'd told his wife that he'd been and he said, "do I look like I have stupid written on my forehead?"

Another guy I knew was going on a stag night. I asked him why guys liked them so much and asked why they don't just pay their wives to strip for them as they'd probably enjoy the compliment (I was being slightly provocative but I did this for an ex once and it was an enjoyable experience - but in the privacy of our own home and I was in a relationship with him). Anyway...this guy said, "you don't get it. Most guys wouldn't want their wives to be treated like that."

I was pretty shocked to hear this. He was meaning to be nice but, from this, I took that men can separate women into 2 groups - one group that they can respect and one group of women that they don't have to respect at all because they're paying them.

I find this hypocrisy very upsetting. My 2 brothers went to a strip club on my older brother's stag night (I mentioned this in my earlier post). I know that if they'd walked in to a strip club that night and seen me, their own sister, on the podium, they'd have pulled me off the stage and punched all their friends in the face for looking at me (probably). Yet it's ok to degrade someone else's sister/girlfriend/wife. I was devastated by their trip to a strip club. To know that my brothers could behave like that was very depressing. They fell off their pedestals for me that night.

And after, I had to listen to my younger brother comparing the girls' p-ssies. My mum stuck up for them both saying, "it's just what men do" and telling me to shut up when I tried to talk about it.

My ex was there on the stag night and went along too. I can't tell you how painful that whole experience was. Yet I didn't understand it myself. Women are told to shut up and even laugh about it. I felt devastated and yet everyone was telling me there was nothing to be upset about. (At this point, I should add that my ex had a personality disorder and, far from reassuring me, delighted in seeing me upset and threw in painful details just to increase his pleasure at seeing me upset.)

I did a lot of soul searching in the following few months, trying to understand and quash my feelings of upset. No one seemed to understand and the culture of today demands that women just accept these trips to lap dancing clubs and even tag along too for an erotic experience. I lost weight thinking I wasn't good enough (from 8.5 stone down to 8 stone), considered cosmetic surgery, took up pole dancing lessons. I reasoned that, if I'd been good enough, why would have wanted to even go in the club in the first place?

The reactions I met with from my brothers, my ex, my mum, friends had my questioning myself but in the end I came across Object and realised that my feelings were perfectly valid. I jacked in the pole dancing classes and came to my senses about the cosmetic surgery.

Places like lap dancing give men a sense of entitlement over the women in the clubs and they teach them that it's ok to disrespect an entire group of women. Men laugh at them - the men I know anyway, and a lot of them are highly paid managers in the NHS; men visit their places behind their wives' backs; they don't just go for a lap dance.

If this was in any other context, it would be unacceptable. My brothers wouldn't dream of getting a 19 year (shaved) girl to dance completely naked for them in their front room in front of them and 4 of their friends on a Saturday night, yet it's ok in a club.

Most men would know that to get a woman to grind naked on their laps in their front room on a Saturday night would be unacceptable in the boundaries of a normal relationship yet somehow it's ok in a club where he's paying her.

And it's ok because there are no emotions involved according to a lot of men I know. Anyway, lapdancing - passe, now! I know of 4 groups of men (all married) in my last NHS organisation who weren't bothering with lap dancing on stag nights anymore but who went abroad to use prostitutes because there's no emotion involved, and it's abroad, and she's choosing to do it, so what's the problem?

Another (ex) friend (married) of mine (PhD from Cambridge) told me that he loves lap dancing clubs because men don't go into clubs and get chatted up by women ever so it's nice to go into a lapdancing club and have women approach you. I mention the PhD from Cambridge because this guy isn't stupid yet has managed to convince himself that the girls in the club actually want to talk to him. I find it all a bit sad.

And all these men would absolutely hate it if their wife/girlfriend were to do as they had done. Clubs now promote themselves to couples but no man I know would ever want to go along to a club in which he would sit there whilst a hot naked guy was paid to grind naked on his wife's lap.

I object to the acceptability of these places now which made it very hard for me, as the partner of someone who went in, to have a voice. I was silenced and ended up suffering hugely. I think there are a lot of women out there who have convinced themselves that they are ok with it, who perhaps don't know what actually goes on in the clubs (I mentioned the Dispatches documentary above), or who not happy but are silenced (see numerous wedding forums online on which women post their worries about their future husbands visiting strip clubs on his stag night). There's no equality here - men would hate it if their partners were to do the equivalent (choosing from over 300 clubs on the high street full of hot guys) whilst they sat at home with their beer bellies playing on their x-boxes!

And I object to having the advertising everywhere which normalises lap dancing clubs to people, I object to the fact that the women in the clubs can be treated like dirt (see the testimonies from ex strippers that Object have published on their website and the Dispatches documentary), I object to the fact that men carry these feelings of entitlement and disrespect with them when they walk out of the clubs. Most of these men would not want their daughters doing this kind of job yet are perfectly happy to degrade someone else's daughter.

I am probably not being very coherent here but the whole episode was a very painful one for me. It affected my relationships with my brothers, my ex, and my mother. When I started campaigning and appeared on the BBC regional news about it, my mum was horrified. She was prouder of her two sons for paying women half their age to strip off for them in a club than of her own daughter for speaking to the BBC one day (without any warning or media training!) about the proliferation of strip clubs.

It was then that I started calling myself a feminist. I realised that the equality that I'd assumed was now inherent in our culture was absolutely not there at all.

Of course, if some people don't want to believe that these places are harmful, my experiences and opinions above will be dismissed, I know.

JessinAvalon · 12/12/2010 19:54

That last sentence sounds horribly defensive, I know!

Beachcomber · 12/12/2010 21:16

I very very much agree with all you are saying Jess.

I had a conversation not very long ago with some male friends where I asked them if they would be happy for their wife/sister/mother/female friend to be working in a strip club. The resounding answer was, of course 'no'.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 12/12/2010 22:12

And do we give men the right to decide what their wife/sister/mother/female friend does for a living? Hmm

earwicga · 12/12/2010 22:44

Ticklish -

'The word ?leer? is being used rather emotively on here to try and depict a scenario in which a man appreciating a woman?s body is nothing more than a letch. This choice of word depicts the woman as passive and the male as active: she just stands there and allows herself to be leered at, as if she has no choice: for her to merely be looked at is abusive.'

It is an abuse of money and power - privilege, if you understand the term. Do you really think the woman would be doing it for free. If there were no wages there would be no staff. People who do pay to look at other's bodies, to use them as something to wank over or wank into are letches.

sethstarkaddersmum · 12/12/2010 22:50

OldLady - of course it's not up to men what their female relatives do for a living. The fact that most men say they would hate it if their relatives did it was mentioned because it demonstrates that even the men who will pay to see it don't have much respect for the women who do it.

I think this is quite a strong argument about it just being a 'normal' job - if the sex industry is just like any other line of work how come the men who are the customers talk about the women who do it in such a disrespectful way?

Beachcomber · 12/12/2010 22:54

Except none of them said they would decide or try to decide for the women in their lives.

They said they would be unhappy at the idea of the women in their lives stripping for men who paid them to do so.

As soon as a person performs acts of a sexual nature for money we enter the realms of power and privilege.

Me taking my clothes off for my DH is entirely different to me doing it for strangers who have paid me to do so. When I take my clothes off with my DH there is no middle man making money out of me and my DH. There is no public being sent the message that it is just fine to objectify women.

MrsClown · 13/12/2010 08:54

Ticklish. To call someone elses point of view rediculous just because it is not the same as yours shows that you dont have a valid argument. You are part of the loud mouthed minority that have kept the rest of us quiet so this 'normality' has been allowed to proliferate!

Ticklish1 · 13/12/2010 22:41

Mrsclown - have you read all of my posts? I did not call you as a person ridiculous. I said it was ridiculous IN GENERAL to blame men having bad manners on lap dancing clubs. They are responsible for a lot of things, but the country's etiquette problems is not on eof them. Since you have taken offence, let me reohrase it. It is HYPERBOLIC to blame lapdancing clubs for men displaying a lack of manners.

I think I've been strongly opinionated, but I certainly haven't resorted to personal insults, which you have done by calling me loud mouthed. Quite how one has a loud mouth when typing online, I don't know. Do you mean I know my own mind?

santasakura · 14/12/2010 01:19

Ticklish have you read JessinAvalon's post?

santasakura · 14/12/2010 01:24

when I read about Iceland, I really feel hopeful for the future, and I feel that in 100 years we're all going to look back with increduilty that human bodies could be bought and sold at a profit to middle-men

lowrib · 14/12/2010 07:46

A very insightful post, JessinAvalon.

Beachcomber · 14/12/2010 10:13

I don't think anyone is blaming a general lack of manners of the men of the nation on strip clubs.

We are saying that a society that condones strip clubs, condones the objectification of women and the commodification of female sexuality. We don't feel that the message this sends out is conducive to female equality.

A separate point has been made about how the men outside or leaving these clubs might behave.

Anyone trying to suggest that inappropriate behaviour does not happen in areas with strip clubs, is kidding themselves.

I think what is concerning currently, is that strip clubs are proliferating and being marketed as mainstream wholesome fun. Now if we didn't live in a patriarchal society, I guess there might be some argument to that.

However we do live in a patriarchal society. In such a society women do no have equal financial and political power. They do not have equal status and they do not have equal privilege. Women as a group are poorer than men as a group - they are more vulnerable to precarious employment and financial instability and dependence. Women and men do not currently operate on equal terms within society. Women currently experience a high rate of sexual violence and harassment.

Female sexuality is a commodity within a capitalist patriarchy and the population is constantly fed the message that this is a normal and fair state of affairs.

From 'Object';

"Lap dancing clubs encourage their customers, and wider society, to see women as sex objects. They reinforce the idea that women are always sexually available, as long as you?ve got a bit of cash to spare."

www.object.org.uk/files/lap%20dancing%20FAQ%202010.pdf

The idea that feminists object to stripping because we have some sort of problem with nudity and somehow perceive it as 'dirty', is a notion which ignores what feminists actually say about their views of the 'sex industry'. The feminist objection is a political and social one - not a moral one.

"We don?t have a problem with nudity, we have a problem with how the mainstreaming of lap dancing clubs reinforces the idea that a woman can be bought and sold to provide sexual services. Recent research into men who buy sex in East London highlighted that men were put off from sexually exploiting women when they started considering them as people. Viewing women as people and not
as objects is a crucial step in changing attitudes. Challenging lap dancing is not about challenging sexual expression, it is about pointing out the danger of continuing to represent women as sex objects who are always ?gagging for it? in a culture in which sexual violence is so common."

(From the same link)

Perhonen · 14/12/2010 10:26

I find it extremely amusing that all this 'men don't respect women who lap dance' malarkey leads to the notion that such clubs should be closed.

Surely we should be campaigning for women to have the right to do what the hell they want with their body and be respected whilst doing so, not trying to force them out of a profession that many people enjoy, for the sake of some disrespectful turds?

It beggars belief that people claiming to be fighting 'for women' are actually trying to opress them..

Perhonen · 14/12/2010 10:30

Also, I'll throw this in for anyone who might be reading and think, Shock horror, that it's perfectly ok for consenting adults to choose their own activities without it being regulated by some board or other...

www.caan.org.uk/statement.html

Beachcomber · 14/12/2010 10:33

And lets not pretend that being paid by a group of strangers to engage in sexual acts is on a par with engaging in sexual acts for one's own pleasure.

Women strip because the current dynamic in society is that they can get paid for doing so and men will pay them to do so.

I have no beef with the women who earn their living this way - one does what one has to to survive in the patriarchy and all that. My beef is with the club owners, the customers who use the power and privilege of money in order to objectify and sexually harass women - the men who use money in order to gain sexual access to women. My beef is with a society which condones, normalises and legitimises such an unequal power dynamic.

It actually makes me laugh in a wry kind of way when people suggest that feminists object to the selling of sexuality and sex because we are prudes or object on a moral basis (that's right-wing Christians, not feminists).

We wish to reclaim female sexuality for women and take it out of the hands of club owners, john's, pimps, porn merchants, advertising companies, and any other tom dick or harry who wishes to buy or sell our sexual identity and intimacy.

Beachcomber · 14/12/2010 10:38

Perhonen, I think your argument ignores the whole money/power/social context dynamic.

Why is that?