Hackney lap dancing clubs....help in signing a petition!!

[TheFeministParent]

here

I don't understand what you mean SGB - I'm a radfem and I have no issue with people having lots of sex or lots of partners. I agree that for some people, sex is no big deal and that people will consent readily to sex that doesn't have a great deal of emotional involvement or implication.

However sex that is not emotionally loaded - a one night stand for example, is still physically intimate. Having sex with strangers for money is physically intimate - I don't really see how you can argue otherwise.

Consenting to no-ties sex because you fancy someone, and feel like having a shag, is entirely different to having sex for money with someone. The power dynamic is totally different for a start.

I also think given the statistics of PTSD/STD/abortion/children fathered by johns/substance abuse/murder/suicide/depression/history of sexual abuse/rape/women trafficked into the industry/violence/beatings/etc, the minority of people who are quite happy to have sex for money is a moot point.

SGB, why are you so neurotic about people having lots of sex with lots of partners?
Why are you so neurotic about people having one night stands?

Totally, completely, utterly separate from the sex industry.

I find it extraordinary that you equate no love sex with the sex industry. Says a lot about your attitude to casual sex TBH... that you think it's something people couldn't possibly do unless they were paid for it?

SS: not in the least. My point is that for some people, sex is another hobby/skill that they are happy to exercise for money as well as for fun. And there's nothing wrong with that, in itself.

You yourself mentioned being concerned that banning strip clubs will put a lot of women out of work and condemn them to poverty at least for a time: my biggest problem with all the anti-sex-industry ranting is precisely that: some people feel that it's OK to deprive someone else of his/her livelihood on the grounds that the person's line of work is 'offensive' or shouldn't be done because some other people are not doing it voluntarily.

Honestly SGB, I do think you have things a bit upside down.

The patriarchy is just fine with the idea of women who have sex with multiple partners (no doubt day in day out), if she is a prostitute, - the oldest profession and all that.

I agree with you that patriarchy doesn't so much like the idea of a woman who freely chooses to have lots of sex for their own pleasure.

Which is pretty fucked up really when you think about it. And very hypocritical.

I don't claim to speak for all feminists/radfems or women but my understanding of feminism is that it takes issue with the sex industry due to the well documented damage said industry does to women. It 'ain't about pleasure in any way shape or form. It is about protecting the vulnerable in an unequal society.

OK SGB, so what would you suggest should be done so that the minority who are happy to engage in sexual acts for money are allowed to carry on, whilst the massive majority who would prefer not to, are protected?

How would you confine the inequality and power dynamic, which is an integral part of paid for sex, to the context of paid for sex? How would you stop the condoning of society, of unequal gender relations within the context of commodified sex, from affecting gender relations within wider society?

How would you stop the fact that the condoning of buying and selling of female sexuality plays a significant role in gender relations?

I don't see how these things can be done, and more to the point, I don't see why they should be done. In a civilized society, women should be able to earn a living without having to pander to The Penis. And men should accept, with dignity, the idea that they do not have a right to get off by using another human being.

Mainly by encouraging unionization among sex workers and putting a stop to the stigmatizing of the industry, so those who are mistreated by employers or customers have recourse to legal action without being hassled and looked down on.

As to improving gender relations within a wider society, less fetishizing of reproduction would help - less treating women as walking wombs. Motherhood is a big part of some women's lives, but not all women want to, or are able to, become mothers. And those of us who do have children don't all think of it as the entire focus and purpose of our lives. Less social pressure on women to make themselves the property of one man and service him.

Oh, and the continued effort to undermine organised religions is vital to improving women's lot. Religion is about the most toxic thing that ever happened for women.

But how do we stop men from developing a sense of entitlement over women's bodies if we don't stigmatise the industry (and I refer to the industry and the demand and not to the women involved)?

OK whilst we agree on the religion thing, you are absolutely not convincing me with regards to the (IMO vital) questions I asked you. No trade union is going to be able to sort this issue out - it is too far-reaching.

I'm not saying that it is easy to figure this out - I'm saying that it should, must and can be done.

Jess: Men's sense of entitlement over women's bodies does not originate in the sex industry. Long before there was any kind of widespread sex industry men have felt entitled to own women, hand them over to other men as gifts or prizes, control their reproductive capacity and have sex with them without paying them, wooing them or even asking them - and to kill them for making sexual choices of their own.

I agree that it doesn't originate in the sex industry but I do think that we have advanced so far but can't achieve equality until the sex industry (amongst other things) is tackled properly, and I include lap dancing clubs in that category.

When a man can go and buy a woman to grind naked on his lap on the high street on a Saturday night for the price of a few drinks, they will have a sense of entitlement over women's bodies. When a man can sleep with a prostitute in this country or another - on a 'harmless' stag weekend - they will have a sense of entitlement over women's bodies.

The men I work with, the men I was friends with (I am more selective in my friendships now) and men in my family think that it is acceptable to go and pick a woman from a line up and pay her to take her clothes off and please them. They think it is acceptable to tell their wives, to talk about the women's body parts, to joke and disrespect these women.

I am in favour of the Swedish model which criminalises the punter and decriminalises the seller of sex. I think it sends out an important message to men that women's bodies are not for sale.

SGB, as someone who has had lots of random one night stands, I can tell you that the ingredients that make those experiences so satisfying are entirely absent in the sex industry...
Do you know what makes a one night stand so exciting? The thrill of the chase ; the banter; the uncertainty; the unexpected; the novelty..
Every one of those things (except novelty, perhaps) are absent in a cash transaction.

I can't think anything more dull than being passively chosen in a line up by some random middle-aged man, who is under no obligation to pleasure me. Passive is the operative word here. A woman being paid is nothing but passive; even if her role is to be a dominatrix, as long as that is what her client wants she is being passive.
Now there is nothing wrong with passive sex, but and entire industry based on female passiveness is not something I personal want to support.

I feel affronted that you compare fabulous one night stand sex with the dull as ditchwater experience of performing for a client. DUll at best, soul-destroying at worst... The antithesis of casual sex..

And the patriarchy will fight tooth and nail to stop the sex industry being shut down... the last thing the patriarchy wants is a lot of liberated women demanding sex their own way

I am not as eloquent as some on here. But what I wanted to say above was that, as long as a man can bypass intimacy and go straight to buying a woman for a short period of time, he will have a sense of entitlement over women.

Not happy with your current girlfriend? Nip to the local lapdancing club to pick from a fantasy girlfriend who will take her clothes off and please you.

Feeling a bit horny? Sleep with a prostitute. Don't want to in this country? Go abroad! They are all really happy in their work in other countries and it's not seedy if it's abroad!

Feeling a bit guilty about paying some hot girl half your age to strip for you? Tell the missus! She'll not want to be seen as uncool or a prude so she'll ease your conscience by telling you she doesn't mind! It might even make her give you a bit more attention. Hell, she might even go with you one evening to prove how cool she is with it. Your mates'll be so jealous!

Fancy some chicken wings and breasts? Nip to Hooters where you legitimately lech over girls whose sole purpose is to serve your food and show off their assets!

Bored in work? Chat to your mates about the lapdancers you fancied at the weekend! So that female colleague of yours is looking a bit pissed off? Sod her! She's probably just a frigid old lesbian! Does she not know that the lapdancers love dancing for you and your mates? You could tell her about that prostitute you slept with in Riga. You knew she enjoyed her work because she told you so when you asked. How could she not enjoy sex with you anyway? You're hot stuff!

Yeah, we all know you could pull a woman easily in a club but these girls love it and they're all so hot! Plus women screw you around. These girls keep their mouth shut and they always look so happy! You don't need to try with them because they just want you to do whatever you want.

And you know you're not doing anything wrong 'cos all your mates are doing it too! Plus it's on the high street and the girls are choosing to do it so you know it's ok.

I am also seeing "less fetishizing of motherhood" as "no need for society to support mothers because reproduction is nothing but a lifstyle choice" , and that is a political stance I'm vehemently opposed to
We've already got enough dads pissing off, enough governments refusing to support women, as it is...
Although it's true that we need to get rid of the current celebrity cult of putting motherhood on a pedastol, but that is something different entirey

Too true Jess. You speak volumes.

Who was it who said that one of the reasons men pay for prostitutes is; 'that you pay for them to go away after the sex'?

Most punters.

And I think it was me who said
"In your dreams, that's the only time you ever get to do the leaving" (Sakura, 2010)

I've only just seen this now but please keep in mind what I say for any future petitions.

I do not agree with this at all. Why try to destroy an industry that you obviously know nothing about individually? Like someone on this post has already pointed out, you have most likely only seen the small downside of this - the crowd who have enjoyed their evening and had a few drinks which led to becoming a bit too friendly for certain people's tastes. I've also noticed that this post is attacking only men and it seems to me a lot of girlfriends/partners are feeling gloomy about experiences to do with them. I'd like to point out there is such things as male strip clubs for ladies which are growing fast in the industry. So stop accusing men for being the only culprits. These days women aren't stupid, they know what they want and have chosen to do and that is fantastic for them!

Men and women alike go along to clubs to celebrate the female form - there is no shame in that.

You want to protect your children and I understand that completely. But wake up, this is the modern world. You can protect them now by pulling them along past these places but when they're old enough, they'll know what the business is! Stop being a 'fear monger' and making these clubs and such seem like complete horror houses to them! This industry been around for years in History and it will carry on for many more!

Each and every one of you who have posted about wanting to get rid of these clubs, please do this; Go to a show. The thing that makes me angry the most is that NONE of you have (most likely) gone inside these places and witnessed for yourselves what happens!
For men and women who perform, its a feeling of empowerment.

You're enjoying your work, celebrating your human form and also being appreciated by the public. But most of you haven't realised this as you've only judged these places by the one or two men you've seen stumbling away from them. Visit yourself, with an open mind if that doesn't kill you, and witness the art these people perform! Don't blame the industry.

Sorry Lucy, I disagree with everything you say. And I think you are doing many of us a disservice by presuming that we know nothing about the industry.

The Dispatches documentary visited several clubs up and down the country and filmed undercover. What I saw in that footage was worse than I had imagined. Celebrating the female form it was not.

As for male strippers, not comparable as I'm sure you know. >300 clubs on the high street at the moment where men can pay women to strip for them. How many for women? It's not on the same scale by any stretch of the imagination.

The picture you present of the industry is fantasy.

JessinAvalon - You've seen footage have you? But you actually haven't been inside one of these clubs yourself? Your point is invalid.

Come back and make a real point once you've actually visited these 'terrible' places.

No thanks Lucy. I never want to step in the door of one of them.

You sound as if you are/have been involved with the industry. Good for you. I just don't agree with anything you say.

I don't see what the problem is. Lapdancing clubs do no harm. The girls that work there do so of their own free will, and they make very good money.

Do any of you actually know any dancers? Have you ever interviewed any? Probably not!

I know lots of dancers, and they all LOVE their jobs. They can work as many or as few nights a week as they want, they can take time off whenever they want, they come and go as they please. They earn crazy amounts of money, they don't have to touch or sleep with the customers, and they are very well protected by the security measures in place in the clubs.

I know dancers that are working to support their families, some are single mums, some are students paying their way through university. In every lapdancing club there are people who rely on that club for their livelihood. And if those clubs get closed down, over 85% of the people who will lose their income are women!!!

All of this talk of "exploitation" is rubbish. Nobody complains that the Chippendales are being "sexually exploited" when they perform in front of a crowd of women! Lapdancing clubs do not hurt womens' rights, if anything they give them more choices. Surely feminism is about empowering women to make their own choices, and NOT about forcing your opinions on them!

Live and let live, I say.

And as for the despatches documentary - they showed a very one sided view, and focussed mostly on the one illegal, unlicensed club that they found that was.... surprise surprise... doing illegal things!!!

However, most licensed, legal clubs... surprise surprise... don't do anything illegal!

But were they represented in that documentary? No. That would have been boring. Look - here's a club NOT breaking the law. Wow. Thrilling television! Not.