Why sexual abuse should be taken seriously...

[tabouleh]

There is a thread at the moment where a MNer has discovered that her DS is abusing her DDs.

Very very sad.

What is fucking shocking is posters trying to trivialise this abuse as "doctors and nurses" and suggesting that the behaviour is more innocent that it seems.

I don't want that support thread de-railed.

So I have linked to here.

So yep I have form for thread about threads lets debate it here.

If the family unit is functioning, things can be sorted out. If it breaks down, clearly it cannot be.

Are you saying the OP in the other thread is not a good enough parent to deal with it? I think she is, personally. Taking RESPONSIBILITY for dealing with something is the opposite of ignoring it, in my opinion.

If your child, for instance, admitted to shop lifting, would you instantly go to the police or try to find another solution. For instance, firstly he repaying the store and secondly never doing it again. That would be my approach.

Larry you're argument doesn't stack up, because the fact is, you cannot seek professional help in this situation without the state being involved.

If you go to a charity or a private sector therapist, they are still duty bound to report any child protection concerns to SS. That's simply how it is. You may disagree with that, or think that's wrong, but tough - that's the way it works. There is no option in this country to seek professional help without the state being involved, at least to the extent of being informed of the work the charity/ private therapist is doing with the child.

So the only way you can be guaranteed to keep the state out of a situation like this, is not to seek professional help. And when you have a situation like this, which is so fraught with danger for ALL these children -because let's face it, ending up as a paedophile is a horrific prospect for the boy, to say nothign of being sexually abused by your brother for ghirs - then I honestly don't see that unless you are incredibly well-informed and competent in the area of dealing with the issues around child sexual abuse and how to divert a child away from a potentially harmful path, you can dispense with professional help. It's simply too complex a process for most parents to deal with alone, however clever, loving and well-informed they are. This is specialist stuff.

that's a rather crass analogy Larry - no individual is being harmed by shoplifting the way a child is by sexual abuse, so the moral responsibility to protect the victim is not there as it is with sexual abuse and that is surely the key point here.

I'm not arguing with your basic premise that in most cases, problems should be sorted out within the family and there is a danger of disempowering parents by relying on professionals btw, I do think that is a danger - but there is a line at which a responsible parent, needs to acknowledge that they simply don't have the expertise to deal with something. I can nurse my child through a very bad cold myself, I'm not going to rush off to the doctor to demand anti-biotics. But if he comes down with cholera, I'm going to call in someone who has better knowledge and tools to deal with that, than I have.

As to your hysterical assertion that the family have been split up, the police are involved, he'll have a criminal record etc. - the boy has gone to stay with his dad. Yes the police will be involved, but we don't know yet if he will be charged with an offence, let alone get a criminal record. (There's a 6% conviction rate for reported rape, remember?) And even if he does get a criminal record, that's better than leaving him to become a paedophile.It's only ben a week, the help will be forthcoming - it's early days yet.

And hey, the girls aren't living with the possibility of being sexually abused by their brother - are we allowed to think that's a great thing?

I posted about something similar happening in my extended family, it was 3 years ago ( just looked it up)

i namechanged and was called a troll, AND didn't get many responses. so i'm glad that the op of the other thread had the guts to use her own name.

the boy in our extended family was charged and then sent to live with his dad - childrens home - dad again

he then raped his stepsister and is now - or last i heard in prison.

as far as i can comment, i think the whole situation was handled appaulingly by social services who ( from what i can gleen) were more intrested in saving money/ thinking about budgets than the welfare of the whole family. there was no therapy for any of the children involved.

it was difficult for all involved, lots of complicated family relationships that i don't want to post about under my real name just in case any family read it. the boys mother isn't allowed to put pictures up of her son in her home or talk about him openly to anyone except me. ofcourse she still loves him despite the devestating things he has done

I don't see how the boy staying with his dad is 'splitting up the family' - the parents were separated anyway, so it seems no worse for him to live with dad than with mum, and surely a good thing to have some space between him and his sisters after what's happened. Also remember the house was so overcrowded the mum was sleeping on the living room floor, so it may have made sense for practical reasons as well!

I posted on the other thread about my similar experience as a child. My parents had similar views about dealing with things in the family, and suspicion of the 'state' and 'authorities'. I was too frightened to say anything to anyone myself for the same reasons, also was a very shy child and wouldn't have dared approach an adult and bring up a subject like that. But keeping it in the family didn't do me much good, and the problem was never properly dealt with and went on until I was well into my teens, and has caused major problems for me with relationships and intimacy as an adult. I felt very angry with my parents for a long time, now I think they were probably doing what they believed was best, but I don't want to see others make the same mistake.

It's nothing to do with not being a 'good enough parent' or shirking parental responsibility, any more than sending your children to school or taking them to the doctor when necessary. Sometimes being a good, responsible parent means working with people with professional expertise and experience of dealing with such situations, to work out the best solution for all the children involved.

^then maybe im wrong.

the name is very much similar (with seasonal nc)to one that has been around for a long time^

And whose name is also very similar to mine (and I had a seasonal nn too), but we're different posters in case anyone was confused.

What really gets me about this, and btw tortoise i mean absolutely no disrespect to you and yours, I'm talking generally - is that on threads where a thirteen year old GIRL is not the perpetrator but the victim - i.e., is raped by a man - we get a huge number of responses along the lines of, oh well 13 is pretty old these days, rainbow parties*, chose to talk to boys online, blah blah blah, totally knowing sexual agent.

A thirteen year old BOY has sexually abused two young girls, and has admitted doing so, and suddenly it's very young, might not have known the implications, etc.

A 13-year-old victim calls it on herself, a 13-year-old perpetrator (sorry, tortoise, but regardless of motive, there's no doubt as to the acts involved here) is too innocent to be blamed.

Oh, no, that's not prioritising male lives at all. Not one fucking bit. It's probably just coincidence that the boy is the perp and the girl is the victim.

Wow thanks larry:

"It is typical of her to exaggerate and completely change what I said."

"My subjunctive tense was ignored by the OP on this thread because she has an agenda."

I think that you will find that most people who posted on this thread also posted on that thread - and therefore they wrote what you said in context and agreed with me that it was fucking disgraceful.

If you do not like my "agenda" or MN agenda or the Feminism section then I suggest you desist from posting.

I will tell you what my "agenda" is...

I actually find it funny that you think I have this massive agenda!

I am a mum of a DS aged 3.0 - I only "found" feminism a few months ago - my eyes have been opened especially by lots of the consciousness raising (experience sharing) threads on MN.

I unfortunately at the moment don't have the time to persue my "agenda" much beyond MN but I am trying to find ways to support causes which stamp out violence against women and children.

I honestly don't know what you're doing on MN larry - and really don't know what your purpose could be on these threads and particulary spending time in a feminist section of a website trying to tell women what to think!

Care to share you agenda larry - and whilst you are here - check out this thread and see why we don't feel like dismissing sexual abuse/assults.

When you've read it - go and ask your wife for her experiences - and listen to her - don't minimise them - and learn something.

"they wrote" = "they read"

larry - of course you are posting here on this thread at my invitation - and I am glad that we're not having this debate over on the support thread.

I meant in general that I couldn't understand why you'd want to post in the Feminist section.

The thing is, for me as a feminist it's not about being "correct" as in your "my views have proved to be correct" statement.

That's quite a male construct: win/lose - correct/incorrect - let's work towards win/win and change the world.

I hope that OP's family are offered counselling. I am sure that the investigation has to be conducted first.

If there are shortcomings in the authorities response to this situation/these types of situations then let's campaign to change them.

I think I can sense your concern for the OP etc and your suggestion of the psychiatric counselling is valid.

However rather than walking away from this thread feeling "right" - I do hope that you can question your attitudes a bit in the face of the overwhelming upset at you saying;

" I am hoping it is far MORE innocent than the bald statement shows. Thirteen year olds vary hugely, from the sexually active to some who are really still children" and

"You are completely ignoring the fact that the "abuser" is the 13 year old SON of the OP. It is not pleasant to think about sexual abuse but the black and white term makes no distinction between rape and a game of doctors and nurses. Yes, 13 is a bit old for that kind of thing, but 13 year olds are wildly different in development."

You will claim that I/other posters have ignored your "nuances" and the subjunctive etc but actually:

There are no nuances - sexual assult is sexual assult - rape is rape. A central principle is "I believe you".

The poster's DD said clearly, very clearly for a 6 year old that her brother had assulted her.

So very very clearly that I found your posts disgusting.

Now maybe it was because you'd not read the posts properly - but I suspect that as a man you were "giving the benefit of the doubt to the abuser".

Although I do not know how much clearer it could have been:

I will repeat what OP said:

"She just said that her 13yr old half Brother keeps pulling her trousers and knickers down and looking at her privates and has touched her(haven't asked her how). And when she is led on his bed he puts her knickers over her head so that his face is close to her privates."

In fact then the boy admits this to his mother - and that was all before your posts.

Raising awareness of the seriousness of sexual assult and rape against women and children is hugely important.

I am trying to challenge your attitudes larry but far far more importantly the 100s of other poster and 1000s of lurkers who have had similar things happen to them and dismissed - it's important to see your attitde challenged.

BTW - in the real world your attitude is of course the prevailing one.

lol at me "bullying" larry - missed that bit.

Surely someone can find me a link to show that this is a common insult to be thrown at a strong angry woman!

Tabouleh,

Please check the date of my last post in the feminist section. I said I would not post there again about a month ago, I think. I have not done so until this thread.

I cannot agree with you re nuances. What if a seven year old had touched his 6 year old sister. Could that be innocent? Or a 13 year old with a mental age of 7?

All I am saying is that, to me, 13 is not an adult and some 13 year olds are still children. Motivations do matter. The fact that the 13 year old told his mother what he was doing, without being ashamed of it, does kind of indicate he did not realise it was wrong.

Now, I agree, that does not lessen it in the eyes of the abusee. However, informing SS is not some magic wand which will make her feel better either. I suggested that a family, with the help of THEIR chosen experts, could solve this kind of problem better by themselves. That is a different view on the solution to the problem, not a denial or an ignoring of the problem. I would never suggest ignoring the poor 6 year old or allowing the behaviour to recur. However, I do not believe in throwing one's child to the wolves (unless he has murdered or something).

"Raising awareness of the seriousness of sexual assult and rape against women and children is hugely important."

That is just a truism that nobody, including me, will disagree with. Personally I would include men in the group but I am aware, as a feminist, you feel that we can stand up for ourselves. Fair enough. I don't like the kind of grouping you imply, though. The innocents: i.e the women and children and the abusers: i.e men. There are a large variety of abusive situations (not all abuse is sexual) where the perpetrators are women.

So you think domestic violence should be handled within the home? By whom? The pop up judge and police force that we all keep on the windowsill? By the victim? The perpetrator? Or the kids?

Elephants,

When some of us become parents, we feel we assume responsibility for our children. Sure, we outsource some of it to schools etc. But, when it comes to discipline, moral guidance etc, we feel that they are our children and we can give them the guidance that they need with the help of OUR OWN chosen experts if required.

You are confusing domestic violence between spouses with an issue between 2 children, where the mother is clearly still head of the household. I am not suggesting that a beaten wife can solve her own domestic violence issue without recourse to the police etc.

larry your post was deleted because you made a personl attack on me.

You may not like the grouping of "sexual assult and rape against women and children" but the UN has launched campaigns against this which lots of countries have signed up to.

Say No To Violence Against Women Campaign.