Why sexual abuse should be taken seriously...

[tabouleh]

There is a thread at the moment where a MNer has discovered that her DS is abusing her DDs.

Very very sad.

What is fucking shocking is posters trying to trivialise this abuse as "doctors and nurses" and suggesting that the behaviour is more innocent that it seems.

I don't want that support thread de-railed.

So I have linked to here.

So yep I have form for thread about threads lets debate it here.

I am very confused by a lot of these comments, and am sitting here with a baffled frown!

Apologies notforlong and pickled mixing you up as the same person earlier!

notforlong - your friend's comments seem appropriate for two children who are a similar age and are playing consensually. A 13 yo boy making his two very young sisters do things of a sexual nature against their will is completely different. And I do not believe for one second that it is normal for 13 yo boys to sexually abuse young children, I don't understand how anyone could think that.

pickled "Is it not possible that these men, the ones with the urges, do it because they can get away with it." Well yes, that's kind of the whole point. Or at least, many men have sexual urges towards women, some of tehm decide to act on it. Other men behave in a sexually inappropriate manner towards women because they think it's funny, it makes them feel powerful etc etc Why is it too much to ask men not to act on urges to humiliate, belittle, upset, assault others? In other contexts where people ignore these urges they expect to end up in court. But not with sexual assault. Why not? Because everyone says that it should be dealt with by the victim, keep quiet and don't make a fuss, don't tell anyone.... Which is what some are saying on the thread about the family where the son has been molesting the daughters. Don't tell anyone, keep quiet. Really?

sorry there larry but i cant let that go on you being fortunate enough to speak to top pediatricians, you will really have to explain that one. i really hope you can explain, cos it sounds like you are trying to validate your completely unqualified opinions by the fact you rub shoulders with some high falutin people.

'If your child, for instance, admitted to shop lifting, would you instantly go to the police or try to find another solution. For instance, firstly he repaying the store and secondly never doing it again. That would be my approach.'

Way to spectacularly miss the point, Larry. I've said that before but no doubt will trot it out again, as you are living in a world of funhouse mirrors. Is it possible you really believe that 'bureaucrats' pose more of a threat to the welfare of the children in this family than a boy who may or may not have been exposed to pornography depicting child rape, who may or may not be trying to reenact scenes he may have seen on a screen somewhere?

Is it possible you really don't understand the horrible situation your 'leave it to the family' approach would entail for the girls here -- that they would be placed in a position of policing their brother and therefore being responsible for his behaviour, responsible for deciding to tell their mother if he did it again and therefore responsible for bringing down the consequence of the police intervention for a second offence?

Tortoise has taken that responsibility upon herself and has taken the situation out of the girls' hands. She owed the girls that assumption of responsibility, that burden. She owed her DS the responsibility of teaching him very clearly, by involving the appropriate authorities immediately, exactly where the boundaries are and that he has crossed them. She has taught the girls the important lesson that they have the right to feel safe from sexual abuse in their own home and that an adult believes them and takes it seriously -- after Tortoise's brother dropped the ball, this was very important. Taking sexual abuse seriously is something that you don't seem to appreciate.

'What I really found disturbing was what I felt was close to schadenfreude on the other thread. It was the excitement this rather sad family's predicament was generating.

All those posters who claim that they will be "thinking about you" all weekend to various posters just make me want to vomit. Most have their own families and their own lives (and if they don't, they have a problem). Let's be a little realistic. MN is an internet board. People should give nuanced and careful advice to others, not cheerlead....'

So you are some sort of knight in shining armour, Larry? Is that how you see yourself, with your mansplaining and your nuances and your complete inability to understand that sexual abuse is not the same as shoplifting, your tendency to recoil from the interventionist and broke state and its bureaucrats, and to set all us emotional and muddle-headed wimmin to rights? Do you really see yourself as some sort of chin-stroking, clear-headed realist, landed here on MN from the planet Mars to calm the hysteria and cut through all the clucking with the reason and realism that men are famous for?

have commented on the other thread that as a mother of 3 now grown sons,their developing sexuality did not involve young girls,the were curious about girls their own age or in fact older.As a single Mum they would pick up their sister when i was at work and cook her tea and bath her read a story and put her to bed. She would have been between 4 and 6 and they saw her as a baby sister who occasionally did their heads in. I would have been extremely concerned for both the boys and their sister had this occurred.This boy needs some support and help before this develops further.

math...yes, I reckon he really does think that

I kinda feel for him really, 'cos it ain't ever gonna work

the definition of madness...keep doing the same thing, the same way, keeping faith you will get the result you want (he won't)

'When you see people posting over and over again and asking repeatedly for updates from the OP, that is not healthy IMO.'

You do not understand the way women communicate.

You speak a completely different language.

The only schadenfreude I have seen on either of these threads is yours -- laying bets on the outcome of all this is boakworthy, Larry.

'If the situation arose in my own family I would like to think that I could get the children all the help they needed without calling in SS or the police. This is not the same as brushing it under the carpet nor is it a fear of 'washing one's dirty linen in public'. It is parenting coupled with damage limitation.'

Damage limitation? Damage to whom? And WHY seek this damage limitation?

When you seek to limit damage/retain control, you have to ask yourself WHY? You have to ask yourself whose interests are being served by this approach.

As Ledkr has illustrated, and as I can too wrt my DS(17), the older brother of three younger sisters, this is not normal 13 yo boy behaviour. Normal 13 yo boys simply do not treat their siblings or any other children like this. Where he got these ideas of his about sexual activity with his young sisters must be investigated, for his sake and for the sake of all the other children he will ever come in contact with henceforward. And the exact extent of what has been going on can and must also be investigated. That investigation must be carried out by professionals using tried and tested methods that have a sound and well-researched foundation. It must be done for the sake of all the children.

Larry you know what I find really sad about your summing up of the possible outcome of reporting this?

"However, if the family is split up, the son gets no therapy at all and continues to abuse, albeit as a "looked after" child, will any of you admit that my common sense trumped your experience??"

Not once, not once in this outcome, do you mention that the girls will no longer be at risk of abuse by their brother.

That is a wonderful thing - to rescue a child from sexual abuse, to let her know that she matters, that she is just as important as her brother, that her life, her welfare, her mental and emotional health doesn't get sacrificed on the altar of the damage limitation to the family.

And you don't even notice it.

Or if you do, you don't mention it, so you can't think it's all that important - certainly not as important as what happens to the boy.

HB...the competitiveness of that statement is also very chilling

Yep it seems to me that larry is very keen to be "right/correct" rather than focusing on stopping the abuse.

Very illuminating though as I feel it is a wonderful insight into a patriarchal view of abusive situations.

How utterly utterly fab that the "small" sexual assault thread is full of disclosure/sharing/believing/supporting.

So amazing to see what a feminist space is like - to me it is a chink of light into a fair society - the feeling is what I experienced at the feminist conference.

pickled, I hope you're still reading.

You said this: "These things can eat away at you and so much sadness at the hands of men on one thread is bound to have consequences. It seeps into your psyche.

I am all for women telling their stories but I don't like the picture that is being painted on that thread. I feel that in the end it will do no one any good. Maybe it's just me ."

I was first sexually assaulted around 25 years ago, at primary school. It does eat away, yes.

The sadness on that thread is at the hands of attackers.

It does seep into your psyche, and it did me good, in these ways:

1. It counteracted the isolation that is the routine consequence of sexual violence. For the first time, people listened to me without making faces that made it clear they wished I would shut up and stop making them uncomfortable.

1. It made me realise - really realise - that my reactions to the abuse and assaults and rapes were normal. That is an enormous step.

1. It also made me consider the extent to which my later relationships had been shaped by the terror and rage and guilt and shame that I'd never been able to recover from because I'd never been permitted to talk about it openly before.

1. And I decided to put a stop to the damage that has been ongoing these 25 years. I wrote this: "I hate that it's me getting 'treatment' and not the two men who've raped me, but I don't want the effects of their crimes to determine my relationships for one day more."

I call that a result. And it was that thread that did it. You don't need to worry it's doing anyone any harm - quite the reverse is true.

I am still reading and I hear what you say .

STBW, I could tell by your posts, how much that thread helped you

Great post STBW.

Pickledsib - I think it's really important to acknowledge that the sadness and darkness you see on that thread is being pulled out of the heads of the women posting their experiences on it. It was put there by the people who decided to abuse and assault them. And by sharing their experiences and seeing those of others, they realise this is not just something that has happened to them alone because they smiled at a stranger or they wore a short school skirt or they didn't scream loudly enough. They see that these things can be done to you no matter where you are - work, home, school, outside, inside - or what you are wearing, or how drunk or sober you are. They are seeing that the common factor is none of these things, but the presence of someone who thought it was his right to touch or kiss or penetrate another person's body without their permission. That the only thing that could have stopped it happening to them, was if the man or men had decided not to do it.

They are putting the responsibility back where it belongs.

So don't complain about the darkness, it's not the work of the victims to cover up that darkness for the sake of everyone smiling and carrying on.

Elephants I totally agree with everything that you have written in you last post. I am not suggesting a cover up, more a way of people healing themselves sooner rather than later. Like I said, I have my own 'small abuses' stories but I feel that I haven't allowed them to eat away at me the way so many on that thread appear to have done.

That thread is a way of healing. What's the problem?

But Pickledsiblings, one of the things that comes out clearly from that thread is that people have been affected not just by what happened to them but by what happened when they told other people about it; there are some types of responses that can help you recover, other that make people keep things secret, make them feel guilty, allow the thing to eat away at them through guilt and shame.
Many of the people that have really suffered because of these things, it's partly because people refused to believe them or told them it was their fault.
Not only should people not feel guilty about what happened but they certainly shouldn't feel guilty about not snapping out of it and bouncing back. You're complaining about the darkness of the thread, but if you were criticising women for the way they have reacted to things, or criticising them for talking about them (both of which you are on the verge of doing - your posts could easily be interpreted in that way) you are in danger of contributing to that darkness.