"Wifework"

[jamaisjedors]

I would have liked to post this in cognitive dissonance but it's all a bit erm... muddled and off track there so I thought I'd start a new thread based on this comment from the thread:

"Sakura Wed 29-Sep-10 11:48:51

... Read "wifework" by Maushart and you'll find that a husband increases the workload for a woman."

DH is away for 2 days, and this evening I have SO much more time on my hands.

Is this true for everyone?

Is it just because there isn't someone else to talk to?

Surely the workload (2 DSs house, garden etc.) should have doubled?

Any thoughts ?

My mum and dad just love looking after us. I doubt they will ever fully stop. They still make us dinners for the fridge to warm up and they do washing and ironing for us (They dont do it their selves they pay someone to do it). They still do a lot more than a normal mum and dad would do and I appreciate it very much especially now I know how hard it is to do some things.

Its not that strange or uncommon hence why so many spouses are like it. I know loads of people who are like it personally both men and women. I guarntee without even reading the wifework book that the cases in it all stem from men who grew up in situations similar to this.

But sunny, you seem to appreciate your parents' hard work. The men we're talking about, don't. That's a really big difference.

You see Sunny, you've been telling us not to get involved with men like this in the first place, yet your husband stuck with you?

'I have tried to explain to him how hard some of this work is. He will admit that he think he'd have been bad at staying home with us children - but he thinks that is to do with his character, not to do with it being hard!
'

I still think that might be making excuses. I used to say I could cook any meal I wanted if I tried. I just dont because its not my personality. Its no big deal. Its easy etc'. Obviously a complete load of crap as I still struggle now!

It is difficult for me to know how to say from the mans pov as I dont know how society would make them feel but I suppose they just use that to make excuses. You can make excuses about anything if you really want to. I still think if you stopped and said look you have to do this and meant it they would change.

Otherwise they will know that you wont. Its unfortunate for your mum if she wont say but then my husband would never say either but that just makes the person worse. I would say 'I dont like cooking, I am not doing it. Your not that bothered about us eating a cooked meal so why bother?' Instead of saying 'It would be quite nice give it a go' my husband would say 'No Im not bothered really. Im happy to cook and dont mind eating ready meals the rest of the time'.

He probably half meant it but totally the wrong answer.

'You see Sunny, you've been telling us not to get involved with men like this in the first place, yet your husband stuck with you?'

Yeah but he has never moaned about it. I did warn him I was like this at the start but he said he wasnt bothered by it.

If he was the kind of person that wanted to see me doing home cooked meals all the time and ironing then he shouldnt of married me because I very much doubt (or maybe it will be many years) before I reach that level. We would of blatantly of fought and divorced if these things were important to him. He still says they dont bother him now either way and I think he means it as he has never ever mentioned it or argued about it once in the last 8 years.

Sounds like he might be suffering from cognitive dissonance!

Yes, you're right sunny - on one level it is making excuses. But on another, he does truly believe it.

My mum does, in fact, constantly complain about how tired she is and how much work there is to do. Unfortunately, she also constantly asks 'why am I so tired? Why have I done nothing with my life?'. It is very sad. She's a highly educated woman but she just doesn't understand that she's working very long hours very no recognition. There really, honestly is a level at which she and my dad do not recognize the problem, I promise you.

You see, you have the option of saying, 'I don't like cooking; I won't do it'. But my mum doesn't feel that (and as I understand it, this is the basic premise of cognitive dissonance). Mum does like cooking (I do, too). She feels that, since she enjoys cooking, she shouldn't mind having to get a meal on the table, freshly cooked, every night. Even when she's been in work since before my dad and only got home at 7.30.

My dad will lay the table and wash up. He thinks that's a fair contribution - after all, mum likes cooking, doesn't she?

That is the attitude problem lots of people are up against. Not the much simpler issue of how to tell someone you don't enjoy cooking and won't do it.

The thing is I am not like SGBS descriptin in that I think he is less than me and not as important and I do help him in other ways.

I just think my experiences with things like ironing and cooking are very relevant to this. Its especially worse if they never had to cope on their own eg always lived with a partner or come straight from their parents.

My husband is like it in some ways when he grew up his mum taught him to iron, cook and do that type of thing but he couldnt do what he calls 'blokey' things. He used to get annoyed at himself as he had never painted a wall, or done the gardening or done any DIY. My dad comes round and fixes things like putting the tv on the wall and he always says 'I am sorry I cant do manly things. I am just scared I will fuck it up and it will fall off or do the wall in'. He painted and used crap paint and keep saying 'I am shit at this. Its awful. I never want to do this again etc'.

I completely understand that as I am like it myself. I also say I really dont care if he can do DIY or the gardening. I married him because I love him and everyone has to learn things.

I suppose my experiences will become more prevelent in the future as no one teaches you life skills as focus is on academic work. You dont do it at school and some parents think they are doing the right thing by being nice and not making you do it.

It does make you feel like really stupid so know exactly how my husband feels. Its not making excuses for anyones husbands but if they have never done a large amount that might be the reason.

Yes, that's true.

But you've been telling us to leave them if they won't help out.

Sorry LRD yes I know it is frustrating but unless your mum wants to change the status quo. It wont ever change as both see no need to change it. Neither of us saw the need to change it and it was my parents that changed me in the end. They tried everything before kids and it didnt work. However they started saying 'Do you want your kids to see you living on mcdonalds and not doing these things'. In the end that changed me. I started snacking on fruit and eating salads. I hardly ever ate fruit and veg before. I do try now with the food but have a way to go before she starts eating with us at weekday nights which is what I am working towards.

Maybe you are the key to changing things by telling your dad why your mum is tired and then maybe making him think. It probably wont be easy but if it probably wont change from either of them. Just like it didnt for us.

I don't think that your experiences will become more prevalent, if you don't mind me saying. I think in some contexts there's more emphasis on life skills, not less. Loads of women my mum's generation leave all the 'car stuff' to their husbands, but it was something I had to learn (at least in theory) for my driving test. That's just one example.

Why does your husband still think these things are 'manly' work? It seems a shame that you're so able to separate your self-worth from traditional 'feminine' work, but he isn't?

wastingaway - I said leave them in the earlier case as SGB said that the men she was on about thought women were lesser and not as important and didnt see the point in listening to the others problems.

I would never do that. I always listen and care what my husband has to say and we never really have big arguments.If you have a man that thinks what SGB said then I would leave him in a heartbeat as he doesnt love you imo.

sunny, that's the whole point. Of course they won't change if they don't want to, and of course I need to find ways of getting through to them. But that's what I've been trying to say all through! That's why suggesting little practical compromises like not worrying about the state of the house, isn't really relevant here.

And sunny, your parents may have thought they were being nice by doing things for you, but they weren't.

'I don't think that your experiences will become more prevalent, if you don't mind me saying. I think in some contexts there's more emphasis on life skills, not less. Loads of women my mum's generation leave all the 'car stuff' to their husbands, but it was something I had to learn (at least in theory) for my driving test. That's just one example.'

At school though you dont learn cooking or sewing or using tools or wiring a plug or how to manage your finances etc.

I actually did a Food Tech GCSE and I couldnt boil an egg until I was 21!! We didnt need to we only had to make pasta and stir in sauce and I made mine in a microwave, cakes with add an egg so not proper ones and sausage rolls using ready made pastry and sausage meat.

'And sunny, your parents may have thought they were being nice by doing things for you, but they weren't.'

Well obviously haha!!

Sunny, your parents are suppose to teach you all that stuff.

We did at my school, and I'm only 25. We learned more than my parents' generation did.

(Though I am baffled about why wiring a plug comes up in these discussions - it always does, and we did learn it in science - but honestly, have you ever needed to do it?).

I do think children are taught quite a lot actually - and certainly those boys who go to university, are much better off than in my dad's generation as they have to learn some basic cooking skills! So, oddly, I think actually the drive towards being academic leads to an increase in practical skills for boys.

I have a Science GCSE we didnt do it at our school. We just looked at a picture. My husband didnt do it at school either. I dont know anyone that did none of my friends can wire a plug.

Wastingaway - I know of only a small amount of people in my age group that knew how to cook and do things like wire a plug. A lot of couples I know live together and get their parents to come over and do stuff. Maybe thats my experiences but I have lived in the midlands and the south and both times it is common in my circles.

I couldn't wire a plug off the top of my head. I bought a DIY book so I can work these things out if needs be.

Also Sunny, we've already established that the circles you move in must be quite different to everyone else here.

I think it just shows how much the school system differs. I think it would make a lot more sense to teach people the basic living stuff as I have been to uni but it would have made sense for me to do normal living things like they did in the 70s. I have a lot of friends with degrees and loads of us atriggle with doing normal things.

Yeah, I think it varies from school to school. Wouldn't worry if you don't know how to wire a plug though, it's an almost totally obsolete skill. Changing a tyre is much more useful!

Virtually everyone I know who's my age and can cook, learned most of what they know at university. You have to, it's too expensive to eat junk food every day. So I think that is good for balancing up the gender roles.

I do agree this stuff should be more integral to the school curriculum. That way, it would be valued more and might not be seen as 'wifework'.

I said that before as most of mumsnet probably from a very different demographic to what I am.

wasting, can I be rude and ask how old you are?

Not at all. I'm 32 and my Mum was 26 I think when she had me. Dad was 28 and is the 5th of 6 children, so I realise that some of my upbringing may be more 'old-fashioned' than others.

I don't remember learning much at school. We did do cooking, but it was mostly rubbish.
I learned to cook by helping my Mum and reading cookbooks. I'd get the Usborne kids cooking books from the library.
We'd always get involved and experiment too. Me and Dad made some revolting concoctions when I was a kid.

Yeah, we made some pretty disgusting experimental food too! I had that Usborne book with the pictures of tiny chefs lifting huge ladles and so on.

I just wondered if most of the posters on this thread were older, because Sunny's upbringing doesn't sound that unusual to me. I knew quite a lot of people whose parents did everything for them in the way she describes.