"Wifework"

[jamaisjedors]

I would have liked to post this in cognitive dissonance but it's all a bit erm... muddled and off track there so I thought I'd start a new thread based on this comment from the thread:

"Sakura Wed 29-Sep-10 11:48:51

... Read "wifework" by Maushart and you'll find that a husband increases the workload for a woman."

DH is away for 2 days, and this evening I have SO much more time on my hands.

Is this true for everyone?

Is it just because there isn't someone else to talk to?

Surely the workload (2 DSs house, garden etc.) should have doubled?

Any thoughts ?

'
I have an equal relationship. I fought tooth and nail for it. I'm not now going to tell others that they're not experiencing inequality. Why would I deny their feelings and experiences?'

I am not saying they are not experiencing equalities.

I am saying how to make things equal.

1. If you are both off at the weekend then one day each the other one should be able to stay in bed as long as they want. If you do something during the week its the others turn at the weekend. That should happen every weekend and should be a given. Our rule is we are allowed to go and do whatever we like but we have to give notice on the Monday of the plans. If the person chooses to stay in then the other person agrees that if the kids wakes up then that person gets up and they also dont also the person to move at all.

2. When I say compromise I think it is important that if you both get in and are tired then it isnt the end of the world if it doesnt get done. In our house neither of us ever nag each other about anything. I cant stand people nagging me as it drives me barmy so I would never do it to anyone else. If anyone nags me I just switch off and dig my heels in as my mum tries this on me all the time. I respond better to my husband as he praises the things I do so I dont mind doing them.

3. After kids dont change your social life and start acting completely different. Just work out between you how you can have the time to pursue your interests. Just say this is what I am doing. Its not a question its just telling the other person. If they say 'oh I thought we could....' thats fine but if its on your night then its up to you first and foremost.

4. When you first have kids we both got up on every night feed so that both of us did all of it. That way everyones happy and the other person doesnt have to sit on their own.

5. The obvious important thing to anyone not in a relationship now is dont start off by doing a lot when you get with someone. That way when you start doing stuff it looks impressive and people are very grateful.

'I also have suspicions about a man who believes he's working harder than his wife when she is looking after 8 children and doing the tidy up and doing the cooking.'

Oh no my husband doesnt think he works harder he thinks it is harder doing my job. I dont think it is though but of course I would never say that I like the attention and being looked after

Sunny2010 - why the hell would both of you need to sit up on night feeds? That's just two people getting tired. That's not inequality that's just silly.

When the children were 1 and 3, it was easier having DH around, as he could bath the child while I fed the baby etc.

Now the children are school age, and my life is so much easier without DH around. There is a lot more conflict with the children, as DH is stricter than I am when it comes to table manners and has these "crack downs" on DS1`s fussy eating.

Also, when the children are asleep we have a proper meal, whereas I would have toast or soup if on my own.

BUT the point is that I love him, and do things to make him happy as I want the people I love to be happy. Also, he is very appreciative of me and a loving person. I do not feel it is a one-way thing.

I think that makes all the difference. I would not live like this with a random man!

It is give and take for both sides. If there would be no love, respect and goodwill between a couple I could not see many people put up with the concept of marriage.

sunny, the point you seem to miss on all the threads is that it doesn't matter whether you convince us that your relationship is equal; the point is whether it feels equal to you. If it does, job done. ALthough on paper, you must realise your marriage is far from equal, in fact heading into the realms of cognitive dissonance.
THis thread is not about comparing your marriage to other women's; it's about comparing your marriage to your husband's marriage

'Sunny2010 - why the hell would both of you need to sit up on night feeds? That's just two people getting tired. That's not inequality that's just silly.'

We used to do it so the other one didnt miss anything and I didnt like doing a feed without someone to talk to. It used to be nice as we would sit and chat. I dont like doing things like that on my own so that was something that was personally important to me.

and you've got three children you say...

I have one daughter but I want 3. I have had 2 miscarriages but I hope that I can have 3 but cant afford more at the minute.

Sakura - bill paying is seen as wifework here in Thailand as well! A lot of Thai men hand over their salary to their wife to look after, but retain a portion of it for their own use. Maths is definitely seen as a feminine skill.

Valeting the car = deep cleaning inside and out.

Neither of which add anything to the conversation at all, sorry!

you said on the other thread that you had three children and you cared for them and others during the day, sometimes up to eight children, for six pound an hour, and then did the cooking and cleaning

TBOM, interesting about the maths thing, isn't it. Shows how much social conditioning affects children's abilities or lack of

I find it easier with the house when DP is away, but harder with the DC. I get exhausted and I love it when he comes in and takes over bedtime - bliss. However I can stay on top of household jobs more easily - even though he actually does his share of chores, he just makes more mess and doesn't see what needs doing and do it as he goes along, like I do.

After he's been away a few days I usually get the house how I like it but by then I'm really missing him... I think I'd really like to have two separate adjoining houses like Helena Bonham Carter. But that is more about my need to feel in control of my surroundings I think. DP does a lot at home and we both work too.

I first read the book when I was newly married, before we had children. I am glad that I have married a man like Quattrocento's :)

We do have a 50:50 split. I am currently pg with DC3 and can safely say that if we didn't have such a good division of household work there is no way I would be having our third child now.

We both work (him 4.5 days per week, me 3 days per week, plus some evening stuff). We are both responsible for paying for the childcare (children are 4 and 2, in nursery three full days per week). We get home at the same time, around 5pm, and all our domestic work is shared. In practice I cook/shop and he does cleaning because we still play to our strengths although everything is evenly split (if anything I would say he does more). We both do laundry, bath kids, change nappies, do gardening, put clothes away, empty bins, get nursery bags ready, pick up bits from the shop, tidy rooms (although we get kids to do this as much as possible). If something needs doing one of us does it, and we try to enable each other to do the things we want to - I make sure he has some time at the weekend to potter in his garage, he makes sure I have time for yoga etc in the evenings. If either of us is fed up or poorly the other one takes the slack. He has had days off work to look after sick children, as have I. I have total confidence that he can do everything that needs doing to run the home, and he has the same confidence in me. It works really well.

I do wonder if we would be in the exact same place if I'd never read the book... it did get into my subconscious a bit so I think I did guard against falling in to some habits early on that might have made things less equal.

'you said on the other thread that you had three children and you cared for them and others during the day, sometimes up to eight children, for six pound an hour, and then did the cooking and cleaning'

No I care for between 3 and 8. Th ratio for a under 2 is 1:3 and the ratio of 2 and 3s is 1: 4 and the ratio for above that is 1: 8. It depends what room I work is as I have done different. I usually do the older ones though which is up to 8 but its a recession so its not always 8 it depends if your key children are in

Sakura - there's also any interesting stereotype here that says that lesbians are highly analytical and really good with data, numbers and business problems, as well as being highly creative thinkers. So lesbian younger daughters are often taken into the family business as business advisors, negotiators etc. Hardly ever left the business though, that goes to sons or daughters who pro-create.

Gay men here however are bestowed with the same stereotype as in many cultures - fashionable, creative, into musicals and make-up. Go figure.

FWIW - my life is much easier in some ways when DH isn't here, and much harder in others.

Easier because I tend to slob out when he's not around, eat takeaways from the carton etc. But also I naturally tend to tidy up after myself, and he doesn't, he just does it at various points in the day. Which means that I end up tidying after him by my own choice because the mess bothers me when it doesn't bother him. I will caveat that by saying I am super-anal, so often tidy things away whilst they are still being used by other people. I honestly don't think he does it because he thinks I'dd tidy it anyway, but who knows?

Harder because he organises everything to do with homelife - school for DD, shopping, cooking menu, bills etc etc etc. Although given he's only ever away for max 2 weeks at a time, I tend to ignore until he's back.

Actually, thinking about it, I'm probably the "male" type in that his life is probably infinitely easier when I'm not around.

Maybe its just that when the WOHP is away, the SAHP/main homemaker has an easier time?

The more I think about it, the more I think I'm turning into a lazy bitch who's taking him for granted. Food for thought.

What is the basic premise of "wifework"? That women do more? Take more responsibility?

DH has alwways stepped up, but when we first moved in together I used to get frustrated as I took all the responsibility. I'd have to ask him to do things. He'd always do them, without a single complaint, but it took me months to make him understand that I didn't think that was enough. I didn't want to be the only one worrying about it, or thinking about it.

Now he's much better and in fact, I am slightly as I think he probably takes on more than me. I take on almost all responsibility and most of the work for cooking and shopping but in everything else it's split at least 50/50 but probably with him taking on more. Eg I do all the "pretty" things in the garden and he does all the "maintenance" things. He does almost all the laundry, although probably half the time I have to ask him or remind him. He is 100% for tidying up on a daily basis, particularly if we have friends over (I'm 100% responsible for food planning, shopping and prep and we share cleaning up after although he tends to do a bit more).

I've also noticed since we bought our own house that he proactively notices things that need doing - eg a crack that needs to be filled or a showerhead that's not working properly.

On the other hand, I work significantly longer hours and bring home 3/4 of our income. Which is why DH does so much as he's at home more than me.

sunny I double checked the other thread, and you definitely said more than once you had kids , not one daughter, but kids*.

On this thread
"sunny2010 Thu 30-Sep-10 09:40:16
I have one daughter but I want 3. I have had 2 miscarriages but I hope that I can have 3 but cant afford more at the minute

On the other thread:
Add message | Report | Message poster sunny2010 Fri 17-Sep-10 09:42:40
I will have to disgaree I work with kids and have kids and my life is the easiest it has ever been since I changed careers and became a mum. I am very thankful for that and like being able to have a laid back life. Childcare is enjoyable to me, of course I have small stressful moments but the vast majority of my time I feel like the luckiest person on earth to be able to do this. Its my hobby and my love and is my main interest.

I am extremely thankful to my husband for going to work full time and doing the ironing as he has a much more boring life than me. I suppose its different attitudes but say your dream job was to be on tv and then you got to do that 24 hours a day thats how I feel about having kids and looking after others kids (sorry if its sounds cheesy )

and

sunny2010 Fri 17-Sep-10 10:10:29
I am on ratio of somewhere between 3 and 8 kids and have my own kids

He also does all our bills and I happily leave that to him - it's time consuming and tedious and frustrates me. But we make major financial decisions together.

Yeah once I had kids thats just how I write it. Its just slang from my local area. People say you got kids? Then you say yeah I got kids I have got a daughter etc. Sorry I dont write very good when I am on the net.

I wrote loads of times on that thread that I couldnt afford another as I had to find £20 to contribute to childcare and I wrote in there that you are only allowed one at nursery and that is the sacrifice I have had to make when I was arguing about people not having choices.

Can someone tell me more about the idea that you spend a lot more time discussing a man's career than a woman's? I have spent hours and hours discussing dh's work, but when I went back to a highly stressful job after maternity leave, it was clear he was never listening to me talk about it. When I confronted him - his argument was that if it was so bad I should just quit, not talk endlessly about it. I don;t like to think of myself as moaning so I did stop talking about work - just took the stress on myself, but thinking about it, why is quitting an option for me, but not him?

Apologies if I misunderstood, sunny.

It's just hard for me to get my head around the fact that everytime someone puts up a feminist argument you're right there arguing why women don't have it worse than men, and therefore feminism is unecessary

Here you go Sakura thats where I wrote it p18 but I wrote it near the end to.

Tabloueh - sunny - how many DC do you have? I'm wondering whether things become more difficult for women and roles become more entrenched once subsequent DCs arrive

I only have 1 I am waiting until the next one is at school before I have another so I dont have too much stress. I do sometimes get broody for another now but I think deep down it makes more sense for us that way as you only have 1 under 5 at a time.

oranges - I find women discuss their problems and other women listen, sympathise and empathise in the main. Men listen (sometimes) to those discussions and some of them just want to try and fix the problem (because, of course, why else would you be telling them about it if you didn't want their advice????). So they can't hear an issue without suggesting a solution.

That and the fact that some men don't value the jobs their wives do out of home - see it as pin-money jobs, not worth being moaned at over.

His job, however, is there to support the family, and is VERY IMPORTANT, don't you know?!

Sakura - I am not arguing in this thread about men having it worse you are bringing up stuff from the other thread and kicking off at me here. I am just giving ideas on what to do as I come from the position of being the lazy, useless one before kids but have changed so I know how the husbands on this thread would feel/be

Sakura - I think that sometimes its natural for people to want to present a different POV or experience to the main one being discussed on the thread - I think that's what sunny is doing. Rather than feminism being not needed.

I hope, anyway.