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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

577 replies

kickassangel · 27/09/2010 13:35

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

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Beachcomber · 27/09/2010 19:21

I don't think there is a #2 thread yet, so I'll join you on this one.

I just wanted to add something about the story I posted about being sexually assaulted on public transport.

I posted that story in answer to a poster who seemed to think that feminism is some sort of religion. I posted that religion is about faith whilst feminism is political and borne out of real life experience of real people (indeed a pattern of experience).

Therefore my story was to give an example of a real life experience (one that is not uncommon for women of all ages - sexual assault) that is part and parcel of being a women in a patriarchy.

The post was not intended to be used to draw any conclusions about the behaviour of men as individuals but more to draw attention to the institutionalised sexism and its consequences of sexual harassment that women endure.

The post was misunderstood by Larry who seemed to think that it was evidence that I am a feminist because I have decided that all men are bad because one of their number fingered me though my clothes when I was 13 years old.

In fact I was answering his religion piss take post.

Thinking that feminists hate men, or think all men are bad, because some of them have treated a person badly, is lazy thinking borne out of obliviousness to privilege IMO. As said before - we don't hate men, we hate patriarchy.

I thought back and realised that I have been sexually harassed in every place I have ever worked bar one (teaching - female dominated environment). I now own my own business so if anybody sexually harasses me I fire them Grin.

I would be very surprised at any man who found the same.

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StayFrosty · 27/09/2010 19:48

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marenmj · 27/09/2010 20:11

Yes, we need a new one.

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AvrilHeytch · 27/09/2010 20:46

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Beachcomber · 27/09/2010 20:50

I did get particularly annoyed by the notion that unless we agreed to stop the original discussion and answer basic questions about basic feminist theory (that were off topic) we were being bullies Shock.

I almost think we could do with a 'guide to the feminist section' thread which explains why feminists having an interesting, mutually respectful exchange should not be expected to stop their discussion in order to deal with tedious and repetitive crap about man hating. Nor should they be expected to explain basic feminist theory to posters who ridicule the actual feminist discussion they have interrupted and are failing to understand.

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AvrilHeytch · 27/09/2010 20:54

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StayFrosty · 27/09/2010 21:13

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AvrilHeytch · 27/09/2010 21:20

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Beachcomber · 27/09/2010 21:28

Really we just need to link to the feminism 101 website.

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LeninGrad · 27/09/2010 22:23

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kickassangel · 27/09/2010 23:02

so if women can't have it all, then can men? someone has to give birth - perhaps men should be legally required to give a large sum to both the mother & the child (to be held in trust) each time a baby is born? then the way a woman's career is affected would be slightly compensated for?

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LeninGrad · 27/09/2010 23:06

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Footlong · 28/09/2010 00:48

Great example of not derailing a thread... sorry when are you oging to start talking about Cognitive Dissonance again?

Or are you happy derailing a thread as long as it follows your agenda?

Very funny.

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Footlong · 28/09/2010 00:55

I had a look at the feminism 101 website.. looks like a 3 year old wrote it. Very average.

Maybe Cognitive Dissonance has convinced them to be happy with a shite website?

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/09/2010 01:04

In what way does it look like a 3 year old wrote it? Examples? (Either from 101 website or from actual three year olds, or preferably both for comparison)

Has it occurred to you that it's written in simple language, not because the authors are simple but because many of the critics of feminism are?

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Footlong · 28/09/2010 01:23

The dimensions are all wrong, the colours are disgusting, the mixing of fonts, and the sizing is wrong.

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Footlong · 28/09/2010 01:25

And just one example of the content... claiming men are not physically stronger thasn females.

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Sakura · 28/09/2010 01:30

Leningrad, Greer didn't actually say that. That was just Larry's bullshit. He misquoted Dworkin as well. He's a total derailer. What she meant was more along the lines of women shouldn't idolise masculine pursuits, such as money, materialism and the workplace (i.e no good will come of emulating men) , but should instead concentrate on investing traditional female pursuits (nature, children, creative expression) with prestige.

She didn'T mean women shouldn't be full members of society, but that when they finally are full members of society,in politics and business, perhaps they shouldn't forget the innate knowledge about the universe they were given being born as women. Perhaps, in other words, they won't create another cold war and drive us to extinction like men with nuclear weapons like men are doing right now, for example

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/09/2010 01:36

Oh it looks bad? - I can't say I've noticed. It's not especially pretty perhaps, why don't you offer to redesign it for them?

Unless you provide links I can't see that comment in context. But I remember Germaine Greer for example, noting that whilst on average men are physically stronger than women, not all men are physically stronger than all women. So "men are stronger than women" can be true or false depending on the context. If I meet a random man he may or may not be stronger than me. He might be much smaller, just weaker in muscle terms, be undernourished etc.

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Footlong · 28/09/2010 01:43

I assume you dont know how websites work.. but if it looks bad, it was WRITTEN badly.
Why woukd I offer to re-design it for them,I think the content is rubbish as well.

Really? Not all men are stronger than all woman? WOW!!! Thats amazing!

Men are stronger than woman, it is just the reality. This debate is exactly the nonsense which makes sites like feminism101 a joke.

I am sure there a chimps around with a higher IQ than some humans. But man was not mroe intelligent than a chimp would be laughed at.

Please stop making yourself look foolish by claiming men are not strnger than woman. any same person knows what that statement is supposed to mean, and knows it is correct, you can attempt pedantry as some back door way to argue it, but it just makes you look silly.

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Sakura · 28/09/2010 01:44

Any mother is stronger than an old man, for example

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Sakura · 28/09/2010 01:45

Footlong she's not saying some men aren't stronger than some women.

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/09/2010 01:46

Goodness, Footlong, that's very rude.

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ElephantsAndMiasmas · 28/09/2010 01:54

I do understand the basics of website building thank you Hmm. I foolishly assumed that on looking at a website full of text your first thought on how it is "written" might actually bear some relation to the text.

You clearly understand my point about varying strengths, and I'm not sure why you're so cross and sarcastic about it. I was using it to illustrate that the comment you quoted from the site (out of context) is not necessarily bollocks.

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Footlong · 28/09/2010 02:10

It is not out of context. It is very much in context. And it is 100% bollox.

The argument they are making is petty and against any real logic.

I treat it the same as a website that declares 'man is smarter than chimp' to be a myth. It is no different.

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