is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

[kickassangel]

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

Footlong - I admit that I didn't read the other thread (it is 1000+ posts long and I've got things to do). But if women are posting to say that they have experienced cognitive dissonance, why are you trying to tell them they haven't?

Footlong - I admit that I didn't read the other thread (it is 1000+ posts long and I've got things to do). But if women are posting to say that they have experienced cognitive dissonance, why are you trying to tell them they haven't?

I'm very interested in the answer to that apparently.

"He (Festinger) argued that there are three ways to deal with cognitive dissonance. He did not consider these mutually exclusive.

1.One may try to change one or more of the beliefs, opinions, or behaviours involved in the dissonance;
2.One may try to acquire new information or beliefs that will increase the existing consonance and thus cause the total dissonance to be reduced; or,
3.One may try to forget or reduce the importance of those cognitions that are in a dissonant relationship (Festinger 1956: 25-26)."

This really spoke to me as a woman living in a patriarchy. I know I do number 3 all the time. Small example, but when I got married DH got very upset over the fact that I didn't want to change my name. In the end I did change it because it really upset him. I reduced the importance of retaining my own name to myself and even convinced myself that it didn't really matter to me.

i think that the problem i have, is that so often, the compromises that dh & i make, are done on a practical level. however, as we are living within a patriarchal society, that means that they swing in his favour.

who should be prepared to give up work to support the other's career if circumstances demand it? i should, cos he earns more, so it would be ridiculous not to. BUT this is because his type of work is more valued in society than mine is.

who should drive the boring 'family' car, and who have the more fun sporty one? i get the family one, cos i'm carrying kids around & getting in the big shopping while he drives to work down the freeway.

neither one of us wants to perpetuate an unfair society, but it is damn hard not to - there are many decisions we made as a family, where actually the decision was made for us by the way that society runs.

Yes, that's it exactly.

I said on the other thread that this discussion is making me see the imbalance in my and DH's lives in a different light. You have hit the nail on the head as to why, kickassangel.

As you say neither of us wants to perpetuate unfairness but we both contribute to it by dealing with cognitive dissonance in ways that do not challenge things.

As you say things, by the nature of living in a patriarchy, often swing DH's way. Although of course there are things that are unfair on DH too - pressure to be breadwinner/masculinity stuff.

I wonder if there is much distinction made by 'positive outcome' cognitive dissonance and 'negative outcome'?

By that I mean when DH sees adverts with men being portrayed as numpties who cannot use washing machines, he knows this idea is silly and untrue but it sort of suits him to accept the cognitive dissonance.

I see the same and know it is silly and untrue but it doesn't suit me to accept it (it is difficult to challenge it however).

interesting point beachcomber, and i think that a lot of us are very conflicted over things like this.

e.g. the blonde, helpless 'girl woman' who needs a man to care for her. well, that can work both ways, can't it? there are women who adopt that role as they find it benefits them. there are also men who pander to it, because they enjoy that role. so whilst they would both appear to be wanting this, do they realise that it isn't true?

sadly, i do know women who adopt this attitude when men are around, even though everyone knows that really the woman is nothing like that, even the men who go along with it.

that is just one example, but i'm sure that to varying extents, we see these things all the time.

Elephants, maybe there's method to FL's madness is he in his own ironic way trying to tell everyone that black is in fact white, thus producing a cognitive dissonance effect all of his own making, and demonstrating that it's alive and well and answering the OP in the affirmative? (While of course displaying a huge amount of cognitive dissonance of his own I mean how hard is it to accept it's not 1950 any more...)

Wouldn't it be fun to have a day when women paid 80p to the pound when they went out shopping (just shopping for essentials, no taking advantage here...) or whatever it is that we earn for every pound a man does, for equal work?

math!!! I wondered what that whistling wind noise was at various points this morning.

LOVE that idea. Walk around with a t-shirt saying "20% off everything!" and then haggle, and hand out leaflets.

I believe that some feminists on this board are suffering from cognitive dissonsnce, the are convinced by other members of this board by sophistry and lies.
By just reinforcing each others prejuduices through sophistry they have actually convinced themselves that this is how the world is.

Woman is unhappy about life, she comes on here to try and find answers, gets repeatedly told it is mans world, it is all mens fault, and before long she believes it. despite the fact it is not true.

soph·ist·ry   /ˈsɒfəstri/ Show Spelled
[sof-uh-stree] Show IPA

?noun, plural -ries.

1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning.
2. a false argument; sophism

from dictionary .com

oh look tumbleweed......
It's a kind of double think that gets me. I find myself on the one hand believing dp and I are equal and on the other hand asking him if dinner was alright! There is a bit of me that thinks 'well if it bloody isn't alright cook it yourself next time' and yet, I still catch myself asking ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (This is despite the fact dp doesn't give a damn so it isn't even like he is doing it to me!)

It's quite sweet the touching faith in the power of posts on MN to change our minds/lives.

There's always a complaint about "everyone shouting 'leave him'" on relationship boards, as if that input from MN is going to break up an otherwise happy relationship.

And now apparently women popping in to have a chat and being told (and believing apparently so they must be a bit thick) that the patriarchy exists on the basis of Sweet Fanny Adams.

I'm afraid if you believe this is what's happening here you are labouring under a massive delusion, fuelled presumably by your low opinion of women's intelligence and capability for independent thought.

Is that the substance of the opposition here Lenin? I cba to read through that giant thread. But is it all going "there's no patriarchy shut urrrp" basically?

"it's wrong" - shit, has someone told MNHQ?