Ms or Mrs?

[ovumahead]

OK, all you intelligent articulate women here, help me! I just got married recently. I'd never really considered being a Mrs, to be honest I didn't put much thought in to it (?). When it came to changing my name on everything, I couldn't stand being a Mrs, so I put Ms on everything. I thought, well, women have fought for this, so why the hell not? Why should everyone know what my marital status is? (Besides, I'll be a Dr next year so it won't matter for too long...)

Apart from the contradiction, perhaps, in changing my name to my husband's (I did put a lot of thought in to that, and did want to, for complex personal reasons!), I don't think it's a big deal to be Ms or Mrs. I was Ms before on most things anyway. So why change?

I didn't discuss this with my husband, but it came up in passing when a letter came addressed to me as Mrs (obviously a mistake!). He asked me, light-heartedly, whether I was a hairy armpitted lesbian.

Now, don't get me wrong, I do find a lot of blokeish humour quite funny at times, and while I can see it wasn't a long, considered response from him, I did find myself giving him a brief lecture on why I'd chosen to do that. But I sounded like a hairy armpitted lesbian.

Now I'm left wondering - how can one overthrow these collectively damaging quips, if one sounds like a cliché when doing so?

And does anyone have a feminist opinion on the Ms or Mrs thing?

Moos is there a difference in your mind between a medical doctor using their title outside of the work environment, and an academic (PhD) doctor doing the same? If so, why? And what's pretentious about it? I don't get it! Please explain. All I thought was that if you've worked hard enough to earn the title of Dr, the you should use it if and when you wish.

IMO people who feel this is pretentious are generally people who are envious of the Dr title. Is that the case with you? (I don't mean that to sound bitchy, just interested). I don't particularly want to alienate people by using a particular title.

Great posts chipmonkey and elephants.
I've never married, always been a ms.
My sons have my and xp's surnames, hyphenated, mine first because it was easier to say that way. Xp is male chauvinist pig but made out he'd go along with it.
When they were small xp went off to get passports (we are not in UK) for them, came back claiming the clerk in the passport office (!) said they weren't allowed to have that surname and I had to sign a form saying I agreed to their having passports in his name alone.
I didn't agree so because xp had filled out forms with just his name we then had to go to a lawyer to swear an affidavit saying their name was myname-xp's name.
(Male) lawyer didn't listen, made out deed poll forms, by then I was so fed up didn't insist on affidavit so we now have forms saying their name has been changed to myname-xp's name when in fact that was their name all along.
Sons now usually use xp's name even though people always spell/pronounce it wrong.
Dd just has her dad's name because I was fed up by then.

Ovamuhead
No there is no difference in my mind whether someone is a medical doctor or a Phd (a Phd has to work much harder to gain that distinction).

A medical doctor should use their "title" for working. Anything else is pure pretentiousness. Why do medical doctors think they have a need to do this? Please let me know as you seem very personable in your opening post.

I'm certainly not jealous: am not an academic. Husband is, has a Phd - but would never ever use his "title" but then I don't think many academics do nowadays. I hoped the days of putting letters after your name was disappearing fast.

I just have a problem with these "title" things. Would never call anyone "sir" etc, Surely all we need are two names.

Looking forward to hearing your views on this subject.

"i do think it's a bit pretentious too i'm afraid. it's like ross.

"you also have the right to write BA(Hons) and MSc after your name everywhere but i wouldn't because it's pretentious.

"it's a shame because it's something i'd have worked hard for but i'd just feel a bit nobby calling myself doctor saf then explaining oh no i'm not a doctor, i did a doctorate."

Someone with a PhD is a doctor. They are not just saying they are. Ross's friends don't get that, but that doesn't make them right. People with PhDs are doctors of philosophy, people with MDs are Medical Doctors. And the former came way before the latter.

Whether or not it pretentious is a matter of opinion. But whether nor not they are or aren't doctors is a matter of fact.

Having a doctorate is being a doctor. It's become traditional and accepted for physicians to call themselves 'Dr', but they're not actually doctors unless they also happen to have a doctorate (by the way in the UK they usually have a BMedSci - Bachelor of medical science - not an MD, I think the MD degree here is actually a doctorate, just to confuse matters further).

I probably wouldn't use 'Dr' outside of work (not that I can use it at all yet, but ykwim) just because it isn't relevant information in other situations and it will be easier to leave everything as Ms. But it's not pretentious to use a title that you've earned and are entitled to.

I'm Ms Hisname.

For much of my adult life I was adamant that I would always be Ms, then I must confess, to my great shame, that I took on Mrs for a while when I got married. But then I pulled myself together and went back to Ms. I just don't see it is right that my title should depend on my state of attachment to a man.

Whoever asked about wedding rings, yes, I wear one, as does DH. For me, it's all about equality. It's not that I don't want people to know I'm married, just that, as I said, I don't want my title to depend on whether I am or not.

I've had some men ask me about why I'm a Ms rather than a Mrs, and when I explain, most of them look genuinely surprised and say they've never thought about it that way. I dare say they would have thought about it if they were the one expected to change titles on marraige!

As for taking DH's surname... well that was more for practical purposes. My maiden name is complicated and having spent 28 years having to tell people how to either spell it or pronounce it, I was very pleased to be rid! Didn't mean much to me anyway as my dad is a bit of a prick.

I'll all for his and her names being brought together in the family unit, and the DCs getting both, but unfortunately in RL those names can get very bulky and impractical.

Looking forward to being Dr in a couple of years to eliminate the problem, though I do expect to get the Dr and Mrs letters....

Mooos - I get what you're saying, I think, but I don't get why it's a bad thing to display your academic wares in your name, if you want to? E.g. if you're a doctor, or if you put letters after your name. I don't think I would do the latter unless necessary (I'm lazy! And it is a bit pointless and nauseating IMO). But the attraction of using the Dr title to me is the total lack of gender specificity, plus I do think that some (unfortunately often very arrogant) medical professionals such as my GP might actually listen to me when I'm talking to them if they see I am a Dr? I just think it could be useful in that respect. I don't see it as a status thing really.

My dad has a PhD and always uses Dr as his title, particularly in professional circles. My DW is the same. There's nothing pretentious about it and is completely normal.

i've always used Ms

never thought to use anything other than that whilst i was growing up, even though my mum/etc were all "mrs"... i just picked up on the idea that when men were introduced they didn't link their name to their marital status, and i thought women would be doing the same "these days".... i remember trying to explain this to my mum when she questionned me, i didn't realise it would be such a big deal

unfortunately i've since learnt that people REALLY don't like you questioning the status quo in this regard, so although i still use Ms, i've become more hardended to a 10-second summary about why I want it kept that way

i correct forms/etc now - because i'm relatively young, everyone always puts "Miss" even if they don't know me. it's annoying.

e.g. perfectly polite, young bloke from the car breakdown service I called last week, he put "miss x y" on the form.. i had to cross it out and write "Ms"... when he looked puzzled and pointed to the form and said "sorry i didn't ask", i just had to laugh and say "it's not relevant anyway though is it"...

people just don't think really. i have no problem with men or women choosing what they want, but i hate that people aren't polite enough to address others in some neutral way unless corrected. presumptious, really.

frgr - yes, the assumption is what often what annoys me. Especially from business contacts or companies I've buying goods or services from.

I don't mind being misaddressed by elderly relatives and friends who just grew up with different social norms.

But when it's someone of my generation in a professional context, it does get my back up.

I'd really like to abolish non-earned titles altogether. I think it's right that people who have earned professional or academic qualifications or status should be recognised for it (if they want). But what do the rest of us need a title for at all?

At my age I get called Mrs all the time and it really annoys me. I'm not married and my surname is my maiden name. I do sometimes correct people and say it's Ms but then feel a bit embarrassed as Ms sounds suspect and I'm too old to be Miss.

I hate Ms because of the ugly sound of the word, so I'm Miss Maidenname.

In my line of work it is traditional for women to stay Miss Maidenname for work if they marry after starting a career, so in fact Miss is used like Ms-it doesn't disclose marital status.

Now I'm married I do sometimes get people not understanding why I'm Miss and have to keep explaining I can't be Mrs. Maidenname because I'm not married to Mr. Maidenname. Interestingly, older people get this, it's the young who don't.

I think all women should be Miss always, like in German: I think Fraulein was abolished, and everyone is just Frau.

I really don't accept that "mizz" is an uglier sounding word than "miss", I think it is a learned response.
Ordered something from currys today, had choice of Mr, Miss, or Mrs. [Hmm]. I chose Mr.

I really don't accept that "mizz" is an uglier sounding word than "miss", I think it is a learned response.
Ordered something from currys today, had choice of Mr, Miss, or Mrs. [Hmm]. I chose Mr.

"I chose Mr."

I would have never done this until a few years ago, I was booking a holiday through First Choice's online form, and they had all options except Ms... so I put "miss" (even though I was married at that point) and emailed to ask them to put in Ms into the dropdown box.

They emailed back saying it wasn't possible due to being an old system.

My husband is a programmer and works in IT, and he generally doesn't understand why I care about these things, very laid back, but even he was annoyed at the reply and said it was the worst excuse ever and not something his company would have admitted - they'd have just made the fix and said it was an oversight it hadn't been fixed before.

Stupid male programmers (not all of them are bad though, my H is lovely :))

A learned response? Blimey, you're patronising.

Eldritch I didn't say anything patronising. I don't think you're stupid for finding Ms an ugly word. But I am suspicious of how, of the 4 titles most commonly used to describe men and women, the only one I have ever heard called ugly is Ms. It does have an undercurrent of ugly feminists=ugly word, to me.

Words can also sound dissonant or "ugly" just because we're not used to them.

(Thinking about it further, Mr, Miss and Mrs all have a short, open "i" in their first syllable, making them sound like a matching set. The differing vowel sound in the centre of "Ms" makes it stand out.)

I suspect that Ms would currently be classed as the uglier option by much of the population but that this wouldn't be as true if it were more widely used.

As a feminist, I don't attach any negative connotations to the thinking behind using Ms, I wholly endorse it. I just use Miss as the non-status defining title, as many women I know do. You can direct your suspicions elsewhere.

OP, you say, : "Now I'm left wondering - how can one overthrow these collectively damaging quips, if one sounds like a cliché when doing so?"

I totally get that. DH, who has always been completely fine (or so I thought) with me remaining Ms MyName was on the phone with an older, more conservative friend of us and was confirming guest details for an event. I overheard him say, "oh, yes, Bling's a chick with a dick" to the friend. I was livid.

I spoke with him afterwards and he admitted that his friend had been a bit surprised by the whole Ms MyName thing and so he'd just defaulted into making a (bad) joke about it.

I explained calmly, but firmly, that I didn't appreciate it and that jokes like that were entirely unacceptable. He agreed and apologised.

But for me, there's still a small niggle of worry now that he's just humouring me, rather than areeing with the choice I thought we had made [it's a small niggle, he proves he's not really in the slightest bit sexist all the time, but still].

But Miss simply isn't the non-status defining title. Saying it doesn't make it so!
But if it suits you within your own work etc sphere, then by all means do it, but it isn't going to work for the general population.

I recall most of my female teachers in Ireland in the late 70s and 80s using Ms. I don't think it's such a 90s thing -- unless it took off in Ireland to a greater extent than in the UK. On reflection, that wouldn't surprise me.

'I did find myself giving him a brief lecture on why I'd chosen to do that. But I sounded like a hairy armpitted lesbian.' OK, this needs tackling (apart from the question of what's wrong with hairy pits or lesbians): if you mean to equate 'fishwife' with HAPL, or 'feminist' with HAPL you need to ask yourself why you think feminists are necessarily hairy armpitted lesbians. The stereotypes of lesbians and feminists alike are worth taking apart and asking about.

'HAPL' is patriarchy-speak for 'shutup' when women voice opinions or question the mould into which we are supposed to fit ourselves.

It's a pity when women repeat this sort of phrase, about themselves.

I have used Ms since marrying and adopting my exH's surname. I'm now stuck with the surname out of deference to the feelings of my children -- despite the fact that I've retained my married name, exH has suggested to them that I'm no longer X Marriedname, which saddened them, so I'm going to keep it until they can fully understand we're all still related.

Interesting discussion.

I've spent most of the last decade or so living in Denmark where titles just aren't used. Bank statements etc are sent First Name, Last Name, teachers in schools are called by their first names etc.

The last year I spent in the UK, and suddenly I was back to having to put titles on everything - have to say, I prefer a lack of titles. I put Ms (am married but kept my name) although after reading this thread, think I'll put princess next time for non-official stuff :o

I have on and off considered changing my surname, but not to dh's, but to my maternal grandmother's name as it is now 'extinct' in Denmark as far as I am aware and would be nice to carry it on. Am far too lazy to get round to making an actual decision about that though.

Having said that, one of my friends consistently sends me Christmas cards etc to Mrs DH's Name - regardless of how many times I have told her that a) I kept my own name and b) we've known each other since we were 4, so I feel our relationship is at the level where we can dispense with that level of formality :o

Regarding dc's surnames, they have dh's which actually irritates more than I thought it would. They have several first names each (long story) and my surname is double-barrelled and we thought it would just be too much to have all those first names and a triple-barrelled surname. I think in the future though they can choose what they want their surname to be, if they want to change to mine, or a different name etc.