Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ms or Mrs?

228 replies

ovumahead · 17/09/2010 16:14

OK, all you intelligent articulate women here, help me! I just got married recently. I'd never really considered being a Mrs, to be honest I didn't put much thought in to it (Blush?). When it came to changing my name on everything, I couldn't stand being a Mrs, so I put Ms on everything. I thought, well, women have fought for this, so why the hell not? Why should everyone know what my marital status is? (Besides, I'll be a Dr next year so it won't matter for too long...Grin)

Apart from the contradiction, perhaps, in changing my name to my husband's (I did put a lot of thought in to that, and did want to, for complex personal reasons!), I don't think it's a big deal to be Ms or Mrs. I was Ms before on most things anyway. So why change?

I didn't discuss this with my husband, but it came up in passing when a letter came addressed to me as Mrs (obviously a mistake!). He asked me, light-heartedly, whether I was a hairy armpitted lesbian.

Now, don't get me wrong, I do find a lot of blokeish humour quite funny at times, and while I can see it wasn't a long, considered response from him, I did find myself giving him a brief lecture on why I'd chosen to do that. But I sounded like a hairy armpitted lesbian.

Now I'm left wondering - how can one overthrow these collectively damaging quips, if one sounds like a cliché when doing so?

And does anyone have a feminist opinion on the Ms or Mrs thing?

OP posts:
mears · 19/09/2010 00:05

Still not clear - do most women who prefer to be Ms with maiden name, have childern named after DH - why?

scottishmummy · 19/09/2010 00:11

im not married.use ms.dc have both surnames

prettybird · 19/09/2010 00:13

With me, it was 'cos my surname is so foreign it was easier for ds to have dh's name, which is much easier - but is still an interesting name.

I do slightly regret not giving ds my name as a middle name - but although we half considered it, it just seemed too poncy.

CakeandRoses · 19/09/2010 00:14

I'm a Ms DH'sname-Cake (and so are DCs, without the Ms of course, that'd be weird!) If I didn't have Dc then I would have stayed Ms Cake.

I've been a Ms since about the age of 6 Grin when I had a wonderful teacher who was a Ms. Her explanation of why she was a Ms made total sense and I've never considered using Miss or Mrs since!

prettybird · 19/09/2010 00:20

The other nice thing abut having kept my surname - is that in Scotland only my close family (parents, brother and his wife) have that name.

That means that when I go to hospital appointments and the doctor starts to say "Are you...?" and I can finish the sentence saying, "yes, I'm his daughter" or if I'm getting an insurance quote from a call centre in Glasgow and they say "I had a teacher with that name", I can say "You went to Clydebank High and she was my mum"

Grin

I'd have lost all of that if I'd changed my name.

scottishmummy · 19/09/2010 00:28

haha scottsih network,so an so fae such n such scheme lassie.thats me

echt · 19/09/2010 00:50

Mears: Still not clear - do most women who prefer to be Ms with maiden name, have childern named after DH - why?

I don't get it either.

I only know of one woman other than myself who's bucked the trend.

chipmonkey · 19/09/2010 00:56

I am Irish. I have also consumed about a bottle of wine. Usually on MN the combination of the above two facts is unfortunate.

But I have been getting seriously annoyed about this whole debate the more I think about it.

Firstly HAPL. Riddled with assumptions. If you are a feminist, you must be a lesbian. In which case, if you fancy men, then you must be unable to think for yourself. Great. If you are a lesbian, then you must have hairy pits. Because other women are not worth prettyfying yourself for. Only men are worth that. Thirdly, hairy pits are unattractive generally, In which case, why do men not shave their pits for women? Because We're Not Worth It.

Secondly, names and titles.

My Dad, who was amazing, had a PhD. For work he was Dr. For home, friends and neigbhours, he was Mr or just known by his first name. He was the most intelligent, funny and unassuming man I ever knew. And annoying. And stubborn. He loved women. He was on the side of women. He was on my side.

In Ireland, the tradition was that you were known by your first name, followed by either the first name of your mother or your father.

My grandmother was known as Mary Johnnie. Her first name, her father's first name. In the town where she lived, my Dad would have been known as Finnain Mary Johnnie, had he grown up there, mainly because she was a more formidable character than my mild-mannered Grandad.

It irks me that women will take the name of their husband because this is a tradition and because they perceive that this will give the impression of a united family. In Ireland this is not a tradition, we have taken it from Britain. And if it is a British tradition, why do British women accept this?

Once, when ds1 was little, MIL came to babysit. And oddly enough, the very next day, ds1 told me that I should change my surname to dh surmame because "then I could be a part of this family" I told ds1
"I am your mother. Of course I am a part of this family." He listened and agreed.

But words cannot express how angry I felt. Because I did not follow the herd and take the surname of dh's family, I am less of a family member to my own children? Really?

And how old is this tradition? And who decided upon this tradition? I will guarantee you, no woman decided that this should be a tradition! That only the male lineage should be recognised. That only the lineage of my husbands father should be recognised in the name of my children. That the genetic input of me, my mother, my grandmother is worth nothing at all? That we are vessels that carry the children, that nurture them, that rear them to adults, but no recognition is given to us?

If you are proud that your children are given the name of a "traditional" family, why are you proud? Of what are you proud?
That your name, and the name of your mother and of your grandmother has been obliterated in the naming of your children? And that the name of your husband, his father and grandfather has been upheld? So, why, why why is that something to be proud of?

MrsDimples · 19/09/2010 01:38

I was a Ms from about 12 or 13 when I found about it. Have been staunchly ever since. When we got engaged I made it clear I was still gonna be Ms myname Dimples. He agreed to be Mr hisname Dimples, it mattered neither way to him, so I said I'd be Mrs myname Dimples as a compromise.

I'd prefer to be Ms still, but I'm still me, as in my name, & the Mrs does make me feel married.

Baby daughter is a Ms mind Grin

Mooos · 19/09/2010 03:12

I've been a Ms for years - before and after marriage: and I've kept my own name.

TBH I also find it strange that people who become doctors change their name to Dr. Is that not a bit pretentious ?? I mean my friends don't call themselves "secretary Smith" or lawyer Barnes".

PS my husband is a doctor (phd) and NEVER uses the title.

piscesmoon · 19/09/2010 08:14

My DH died before he was 30 yr old and as he didn't leave much I was very pleased that I had his name-it seemed something he did leave. I still don't understand why I should want to be linked with my brothers and nephews, rather than my DH and DS.

VeryHungryKatypillar · 19/09/2010 08:29

Well I'm poncey then, DD has my maiden name/birth surname as one of her middle names...

ledkr · 19/09/2010 08:36

I am divorced and re married but have kept my ex h name as i dint want to be a different surname to my dd. It turned out this was the right thing for her. She didnt cope well with divorce or new dh so little things matter.However i am now having dh and my baby and hate it that i have ex h name (twat)and feel sorry for dh who actually couldnt care less.May change it when dd is older and baby starts school.

EveWasFramed72 · 19/09/2010 08:38

I have BOTH names, without a hyphen, and am addressed as such...I'm not bothered about Ms or Mrs. I passed this same thing down to my DD, because I don't see why my name has to be carried on the male line (I also have a ds), plus my maiden name is also a girl's first name. So, my daughter and I share the surname: maidenname dhname.

I didn't want to lose my surname, but I also liked the idea of sharing one family name. I think it's down to what you're comfortable with...I am still myself no matter what my surname is.

ScroobiousPip · 19/09/2010 09:32

Mears - I am Ms Pip, my DS is Toddler Pip ex-DH's surname [double barrelled but not hyphenated]. We are both happy for him to use one or other or both of his surnames as he gets older. His choice entirely.

My surname is extremely unusual and will not be passed on by my siblings. Apart from all the reasons other posters have given for not changing their surname, I also like that my father's surname has passed to my son.

Ephiny · 19/09/2010 09:50

"I find it weird that on here everyone seems so attached to Ms and yet I don't meet them in RL. I have had 3 DCs through school and in all that time, and goodness knows how many teachers, I have come across only one Ms. In my teaching career I have come across 2 at work. Equally I can't say that I know many in other spheres. If it was liked, it would have taken off and I would be an old fashioned minority but everywhere I go I am in the majority (except on here!)."

I think it depends on the 'sphere' as you say - wouldn't be surprised if teaching (especially primary) is quite traditional in that way, but I've worked in the City for the last few years, and never met a woman who wasn't a Ms, it would seem odd and unprofessional and old-fashioned in that context to use anything else. Some women do change their names when they marry, but are still known as Ms, at least professionally. I remember when I applied for my job, the application form had a choice of Mr or Ms, nothing else.

Similarly in academia it's either Ms or Dr in my experience, and it's unusual for an academic to change her name as it messes up publication record and reputation.

babymutha · 19/09/2010 10:57

Will always be a Ms but have no problem if people call me mrs by mistake. AND FWIW - all the lesbians I know shave their armpits, some of them even have long hair and wear lipstick and skirts and have children. I expect more of mumsnet than pointless gay bashing. Come on people!

togarama · 19/09/2010 11:50

Mears: Still not clear - do most women who prefer to be Ms with maiden name, have childern named after DH - why?

I don't think we do. From my own experience and reading other responses in this thread, it seems that the more common route is for Ms KeepOwnNames to give the children both surnames (with or without hyphen).

Our DD has both surnames without hyphen and in this country we normally just use my name for registering her with doctors, nursery, library etc.. If we ever live in DH's native country we might register her at a school in his surname or with both. Birth certificate and passports obviously carry her full name and if she prefers one over the other when she grows up then that's up to her.

togarama · 19/09/2010 12:08

"I find it weird that on here everyone seems so attached to Ms and yet I don't meet them in RL."

IRL, it often just doesn't come up unless you're filling a form in or someone wrongly calls you Mrs. It's possible that you're not aware that some people you know use Ms.

I do get really irritated when companies/banks or people who know me wrongly address things to "Mrs HisName" but I'm more likely to have a private word with individuals or write a letter of complaint to companies than to create a big public scene.

ovumahead · 19/09/2010 12:44

babymutha I don't think anyone's been 'gay bashing' on here - have you actually read the posts? People have been criticising the HAPL phrase, no one here has used it in a favourable way, including me, the OP.

OP posts:
ovumahead · 19/09/2010 12:47

chip totally agree with your comments about what the tradition of taking on a man's name actually means. It seems so archaic. But I don't think everyone does it.

However, I think if people do feel personally that it gives them a more unified sense of identity with their family, then what's the problem with that?

OP posts:
CakeandRoses · 19/09/2010 12:48

togorama, I agree with you re: "It's possible that you're not aware that some people you know use Ms."

Friends often address mail to me as Mrs despite knowing me for years, knowing I kept my surname (hyphenated with DH's) and that I describe myself as a feminist. It's just not something that really comes up in conversation and it's not likely that they'll have seen anything with my title written on it.

Ephiny · 19/09/2010 13:49

"However, I think if people do feel personally that it gives them a more unified sense of identity with their family, then what's the problem with that?"

Nothing, people can call themselves whatever they want, and it's perfectly reasonable to want to have a 'family name' though I don't see the need for it myself, or to change because you don't like your original name, or for many other reasons. But why is it always (or as close to always as to make no difference) the woman in a heterosexual marriage who has to change - if it felt like a completely free choice, wouldn't you expect it to be the man about half of the time? So there are additional pressures there, as well as personal preference.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 19/09/2010 13:55

GREAT post chipmonkey.

Lots of people have posted on here about the problems you sometimes encounter with changing your name - different names to your DC, having to change back on divorce, changing again on remarriage, complications with career, difficulty with tracing lineage etc etc etc. Yet the advantages seem to be...family unity?

I'm thinking about circumstances where people change their names:

  • on the run from the law
  • hiding from previous associates
  • converting to different religion
  • obliterating dull name in favour of more exciting one when seeking fame and fortune

So it seems to be for either a) seeking anonymity or b) signifying "rebirth" into a better life. Either way it seems the aim is to "kill off" your previous identity, to define the part of your life lived as Original Name as having come to an end. Starting a new life. I suppose marriage is in a way a new life, but surely it makes more sense that either both people change (to indicate that they are starting anew together), or neither person changes because they fell in love with each other under their original names. If my DP was James Brooks, it would be James Brooks that I had fallen in love with, and if he were to change to James O'Hanlon I would find that a peculiar way to start married life - by altering his identity.

So it has to come down to the absorption of the woman into the man's identity. That's why name-changing happens.

ovumahead · 19/09/2010 14:06

Elephants yes I see what you mean. I guess that's the problem with tradition - it makes no sense when you really look at it. Before I changed my name, but after we got married, I told my dh that I thought he ought to change his name too, or that perhaps we should create a totally new one in order to signify a new identity. But we couldn't be bothered! He was totally up for it, couldn't see a problem with it, and is not particularly attached to his last name. But in the end we chose just to stick with things as they are for now. Perhaps when we have our wedding celebration next year, we could do something radical then...

But anyway the way you describe it just makes it all so bloody pointless anyway! And I totally agree with you. I think if I'd actually liked my maiden name I'd have been more keen to keep it. But I never liked it, and was quite happy to have a change, despite losing all my academic references so far. I'll get over that though!

OP posts: