Discussion on Women's Hour about harrassment on the streets

[LadyBiscuit]

Did anyone hear this? I am absolutely furious. They had a woman from the London Anti Street Harassment campaign and a male journalist. He was saying that feminists were effectively trying to silence men and deny them a voice by campaigning against harassment.

Sorry I'm being very inarticulate but I was so cross.

I shall post a link when it's up on Listen Again.

Here's the link to have a listen.

Men most definitely take their freedom to be heard, to speak freely, to walk where they damn well please for granted.

dh just said it is obvious that the perverts would do it when there are no men around because there are plenty of men who, if they saw a man doing that, would just punch them, and anyone planning on wanking in public is going to know that.
So it is not surprising men have generally not seen it.

Some men, the awful ones.

Why do the voices of horrible lechy / stalky / harrassy etc men outweigh the ones of normal men who wouldn't dream of grabbing a strange womans breasts or shouting obscenities in the street?

I suppose it's because they have to get the extremes. No-one wants to listen to a discussion in which everyone agrees...

They did read out an e-mail from a man at the end, in which he said the journalist was talking crap.

Also listened and couldnt believe what I was hearing. Just hopping mad. How dare somebody who has never and will never experience this have the nerve to pontificate about it? Its like me (middle class ex professional job SAHM) speaking authoratively about the experiences of a male 50 year old heroin addict or something. He just doesnt have a clue.

Like almost all my female friends and acquaintances have experienced lots of abuse over the years for being female and daring to go about my business . Including having somebody wank at me (twice). In fact my mother (mid 60s, married for 40 years retired primary school teacher) was walking back from the village shop the other day when a man leaned out of his van and should "slag" right at her. Would be funny if it wasnt so awful.

But it's freedom of speech, Kerala...

I just got round to listening to the interview. God, what a knob!
I didn't think Jenni Murray handled it badly though.
"Feminism is about policing men" And all that shite about "banter" and "flirting". Did he actually have the temerity to call what the woman from LASH had described happening to her (a car full of men following her and verbally abusing her for 15minutes at night) "flirting". WTF?

Did he really say that it is fine for men to follow women?

Did he have anything to say about the fact that this stuff starts when girls are about 12/13/14?

Sorry not prepared to listen to it

He didn't say it was fine as such. He did refer to it as "flirting" though .

He didn't say anything about younger girls. His line basically seemed to be that anything physical was a no no but pretty much anything verbal is ok.

Flirting is inoffensive though. And not very obvious

I find it strange that these arguments often seem to state that men are incapable of normal human interaction, knowing where to draw a line, what is acceptable and what's not. Normal men don't wish to intimidate women. If they think they are causing discomfort they back off. Yet these arguments always seem to imply that men can't tell when they are unsettling someone. That gets a huge from me. They can tell, that is why they're doing it. They can tell, and they don't care. Most men don't want to behave like that, and so they don't. It's all quite simple really

Flirting?! So the gentleman in the open top car that called me a "fucking cunt" for daring to cycle in a bike lane home from a charity bike ride was just engaging in abit of delightful banter. Of course! I should have realised - gosh am lucky Brendan O'Neill was able to put me straight.

Yeah he well fancied you

Dont listen to it ISNT it wont do your blood pressure any good .

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I'm not going to

It is the expected response isn't it.

When you're 16 and in the pub and some pissed bloke comes and goes on at you and won't go away and starts snuggling up and touching you, the correct response is a flattered "ooooh you are naughty, you old flirt you" and a wide smile.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Exactly. Flirting implies some kind of interaction and reciprocity. Flirting is not walking, head down to avoid eye contact, terrified, down a dark street while a car full of dickheads invite you to perform sexual acts on them.

Apparently I told one of DHs mates to fuck off go away in the pub when I was about 19 and his mate was about 14 and badgering me.

Hahahhahahhahahahha

I never had any truck with that sort of nonsense. Men hate that. And of course it can be a bit dangerous. I obviously wasn't intimidated by this particular 14yo!

DH remembered me years later

oh no, you mustn't do that ISNT - that would be leading him on and he will quite understandably think you want to sleep with him.
It is very unfair to smile at men if you don't want to sleep with them.

Well that's the bind isn't it seth.

Making a sharpish exit is actually the only sensible reaction, really. If you are in a situation where you can leave/go to a different part of the place.

Unless of course the annoyance is a 14yo, in which case you can swat them away a bit more easliy

It's bizarre though isn't it. What kind of situation are we in where going on and on and on and on at a female, and refusing to leave, and taking anything except "fuck off" as an active come-on, is a standard chat-up technique amongst males?

While simultaneously females are taught not to say no, and to be compliant, and to smile even if they really don't want to etc.

It's really peculiar, and leads to a whole host of other trouble.

How many women have gone out on a date with a bloke just to get him to shut the fuck up? I certainly have. They wear you down. It's coercion really, and the same pattern shows with a lot of sexual activity, especially when you're young.

it's terrible really.

Just been talking to DH about this, and his reaction was to ignore (both B O'N and the harrassment). I've spent quite a lot of time trying to explain to him that we, as women, shouldn't HAVE TO. He was amazed when I told him about the things that have happened to me in the past.

Am I overstating and overthinking it a bit by thinking that it's an incitement to sexual hatred? I might be, I'm so cross, but it seems to me that if anyone was talking so about other minority groups in such an irresponsible manner, in effect condoning verbal and physical assault, they would be censured, and rightly so.

I had a bloke follow me all the way home from the pub because when he made inappropriate comments to me in the street I said to him 'I am sure your mum is really proud of the way you turned out'. I must have touched a nerve because he badgered me all the way to my door wanting to set me straight on the fact that his mother was very proud of him actually

I will post on Women's Hour website too

I have had various flashers in my time - would estimate about 6 and they are generally considered as a joke. Various occasions of being felt up in a crowd. Too many to mention of pervy comments which quickly turn aggressive when you give a "not a chance" comment.

I was once stopped on a very busy road by a man and I thought he was going to ask directions or the time and he actually said "how would you like to get you lips round my big fat dick?"

Hilarious eh?