Discussion on Women's Hour about harrassment on the streets

[LadyBiscuit]

Did anyone hear this? I am absolutely furious. They had a woman from the London Anti Street Harassment campaign and a male journalist. He was saying that feminists were effectively trying to silence men and deny them a voice by campaigning against harassment.

Sorry I'm being very inarticulate but I was so cross.

I shall post a link when it's up on Listen Again.

Here's the link to have a listen.

damn it just wrote a giant post and lost it.

Anyway, was just saying well done really. And it was good that there was a consensus all the way through (starting with you framing it so clearly at the start) that verbal harrassment was unacceptable. The only question was whether whistling was just as bad. I think you got the reality of the situation over and stuck to your guns brilliantly.

What next?

That sounds bloody awful InMyPrime, your poor friends as well.

Do these blokes never let it occur to them that their opinion on our faces/bodies/clothing is just not of interest?

Blimey InMyPrime. Looks like we get off lightly here!

Anyone found the programme on iPlayer? Was in bed by 9pm last night (thanks to my ever-wakeful children).

Well done Inmyprime, I can imagine what that must of been like, I spent a couple of months working in Belgium, in Liege, the harassment there was really frightening, we must act now to prevent the UK being like this.

I found Italy ok, but come to think of it could have been cos I was DP glued to my side the whole time. Can't beat India for this IMO, but to be fair there is a fair amount of shouting going on about other things (selling etc) so it fades in a bit more. What I hate there is the gangs of men making kissy noises at you .

In fact, I developed a special technique to put them off if anyone wants to hear it.

I have been harassed all over the UK since I was a teenager (no worse in London). I used to work in a cafe when I was 16 and had to walk through an industrial estate to get there so was constantly shouted at by lorry drivers. I am under 5 foot tall and have always looked much younger than I am, so I must have looked about 12 at the time.

It is the fact that you don't know what will come after the comments that is the worst thing. It also annoys me that the emphasis in the media always seems to be for women to ignore it, not for men to stop doing it.

And for the record, I have seen a man wanking in public. I was trying to go for a nice walk but had to turn back as I couldn't carry on by myself in a quiet spot knowing he was there behind me, maybe following, maybe not.

It is brilliant that the LASH campaign is getting so much publicity, and for projects like the Wankermap and the excellent Welsh Govt film. Collating all these stories helps makes the point that this harassment is an everyday occurance rather than separate incidents, with a regular threat of violence behind them.

Did anyone hear the followup to this discussion on today's women's hour? They had a selection of comments from men who had rung up to complain about Brendan O'Neill. It was quite heartening I felt.

lolsob @ Wankermap.

What sort of time was that Amy?

Oh ok got it - around 30 mins in.

Love the man saying it's not acceptable for women nowadays to still have to be fighting the battle of the 1970s.

Glad to hear others are appalled at what I and friends of mine experienced in Brussels. I have told people in RL (both male and female) and often get the reaction 'oh it can't have been that bad'. Women often react worst and seem to think I'm exaggerating or making a fuss or even being racist if I mention that all of the men doing the harrassing were of Arab / North African extraction.

When I say all I really do mean all too - I never experienced harrassment from European men or any of the many Conogolese or Senegalese immigrants either. The African (sub-Saharan, I mean) quarter of Brussels was actually quite nice and chilled out to walk through compared to going to the Arab / North African areas where the few women around were dressed in black chadors and hijabs and young men were always hanging about the streets in groups.

I assumed it was a cultural problem where, in their Muslim culture, a woman walking around in public was not normal or acceptable. Most of them were young enough to not be first-generation immigrants, spoke good French etc so they knew that Europe has different norms with regard to women's freedom. Street harrassing of women was a way of asserting their own cultural norms and showing defiance against European culture. In that sense, I felt very much like I was being targeted on the frontline of some culture war that was alien to me. It also made me aware of the reality that street harrassment is not just some guy shouting 'nice legs' but can be about power and deeper social issues.

AvrilHeytch, your friend's advice is interesting about dying your hair black to go to Guatemala. There does seem to be an element of targeting lighter-haired women too in countries with major street harrassment problems. I don't know if it's just because we stand out in countries where almost everyone is dark-haired or if there is some actual racist element involving assumptions about women with a Northern European background.

God it's not racist to make an observation. Not like you're saying "all muslims" do it, which would obviously be wrong. In India I found that the kissy noises stuff happened everywhere, but I have never been so harrassed as next to the Jama Masjid in Delhi. I was modestly dressed (long top, trousers, shawl covering head and shoulders) and with an older my-mum-aged lady. But we were literally surrounded by men and boys with cameras clustering in and trying to photograph me, touch me etc. We just turned tail and got OUT of there. I suppose if there are used to seeing women much more covered up, I was practically naked to them. But that's making an excuse really when I'm sure that loads and loads of Muslim men from the same background would think they were behaving like twats.

InMyPrime - I grew up in Brussels and wondered if that might have been the case. I got really upset once and said to one of my friend at school 'I hate Moroccan men and that makes me racist and I hate myself for it'. She said 'no, you're not racist - you don't hate Moroccan women or older men or children. You hate the men who harass you.' And that's absolutely true.

I got grabbed between the legs more often than I can think of and spat at etc too. And I was a schoolgirl.

I've never been to Morocco because of these experiences even though friends have been and said it was fine.

I think you are unlikely to have much trouble in Guatamala Avril. I have travelled a fair bit around S America (not to G tho) and never had any grief. Yes, I've been stared at (I have blonde hair) but never assaulted or had anyone make derogatory remarks.

I hadn't really thought of it like that dittany. I just assumed that they don't often get a lot of men ringing in, and this had really got them calling.

Yes it is.

Feedback is possibly an option?

Hello,

Hope I'm ok commenting, being a man and everything.

In my own experience (which is all I have of course ) men HATE these wankers, gropers and perverts. Not as much as women, obviously, because we aren't affected directly, and of course we don't see it, so it isn't in our daily consciousness.

It's absolutely fucking awful that women can't go about their daily business without being bothered. There isn't any excuse either. I've spend my entire life with those lively male hormones (they came with the body) and somehow never managed to hassle or abuse a women in the street. You know, because I'm not a wanker.

If people don't intervene, its because we've seen the look in the eye of the perpetrator. Men have a good vibe for which other men are mad or dangerous, because they could attack us physically. If they don't intervene, it is because they are scared and mortified. However, they should. It's the right thing to do. If I ever witnessed it I would hope I had the courage to intervene.