Discussion on Women's Hour about harrassment on the streets

[LadyBiscuit]

Did anyone hear this? I am absolutely furious. They had a woman from the London Anti Street Harassment campaign and a male journalist. He was saying that feminists were effectively trying to silence men and deny them a voice by campaigning against harassment.

Sorry I'm being very inarticulate but I was so cross.

I shall post a link when it's up on Listen Again.

Here's the link to have a listen.

dittany no I didn't know that! Apologies. Came to it through Jezebel and thought I'd link straight to the source. Don't know anything about ampersand beyond that one cartoon.

I bet they think it's just something badly brought up people do.

That's what it is though, by another name, it's just bullying. Being loud wouldn't work in an office though. Or would it.

The Gaze was one of the first things I ever learn about in feminism and I remember thinking "OMG, I have felt this since I was 10"

All of this disgustingness is an extension of it

Appletrees, yes I think my first reaction when this guy grabbed my arse was to spin round and say "what the fuck are you doing?!" he then smirked and looked smug and went on his merry way and I was left standing there feeling really embarrassed and humiliated. It's just incredibly undermining.

He SMIRKED? Fucking hell what a cunt.

Yes LadyBlaBlah it's very much about the gaze isn't it? I thought those young women in the woman's hour interview got that idea across well. They talked about "running the gauntlet" and "bracing themselves". I can really relate to that. How often do you see a group of men or boys and feel you have to brace yourself for whatever comments are about to be hurled your way?

Still like the cartoon though.

This is a huge problem. Harrassing women needs to be stigmatised as say, defecating publicly. Something only mad people do on purpose.

If I'm feeling safe, I shout at them to fuck off. Wouldn't recommend this in all situations but it is very satisfying. Although for every episode of sweary shouting there are 12 where I shuffle off in the opposite direction as quickly as I can.

Totally agree with LB.

We need to start talking about all of this stuff, all of it, right up to rape. As long as we're quiet, then people can continue to pretend it's not really happening, it's rare etc etc.

I think that teh reason people don't talk is complex

If you talk about it then you have to think about it and face up to it rather than brushing it off, which is hard

And it's so common that you'd have to spend your whole time enraged.

Plus if you decide to "register" it properly and notice it and tell someone, then why can't you tell the police, why can't someone do sometihng about it? but no-ones going to do anythign about it, so what's the point in getting upset about it.

all of this is self preservation and opting for an easy life.

Yep. Smirked.

Another bloke who grabbed my breast when I was walking down an isolated path years ago, when I spun round outraged and said "what the fuck are you doing?" replied that he "couldn't help it" and then scarpered off . He couldn't help grabbing a stranger's breast?! Makes me angry just thinking about it.

why don't we talk about it.... hmmm. Because we have lives to live.

One of my worst experiences was when I was a new lecturer and had got up very early to prepare for my last morning's teaching of a very intensive module. I was feeling pretty chuffed I had got this far with the module with very little time to prepare, working every hour there was etc.
As I walked in to work a man followed me on his bike making various lewd suggestions and threats.... Sometimes my building would have still been locked that early and I will never forget the relief when it was open and I was able to get in and lock the door behind me.

Anyway I was extremely shaken but my main concern was to get into work, finish preparing the lecture and do the teaching. I told one other person about it but I didn't want to do anything that would get in the way of my work, like calling the police, I didn't want to be viewed as a problem, I didn't want anyone to tell me I was stupid for getting into that situation. (I had smiled at him - usually people you meet at 6.45 in the morning are ok.)

My thinking at the time was 'I am not going to let this arsehole get in the way of me successfully completing my teaching and making a success of my first term!'

I do spend most of my life enraged ISN't

I did tell the police when the man grabbed my breast and they took it quite seriously. Obviously they wouldn't be interested if you reported that someone had said something offensive to you.

So glad to see this thread. I too was listening in disbelief and rage to this programme. I remember at the end he kindly gave his approval of feminists fighting for equality but not against verbal harrassment on the streets (so sorry, 'banter'). This man is so thick he can't see that fighting for the right to walk down a street in every day life, unharrassed and unabused, is EXACTLY fighting for the equal right to this that men have. I cannot believe that this man was given airtime and agree that his ludicrous and condescending comments were woefully unchallenged.

Oh I know men knwo it goes on - I'm just not sure they realise how frequently and how vicious it is.

I think a lotof them are under the impression that it's of the "nice legs darlin'" variety as promoted by WH.

they do smirk though, don't they? One of my other top 4 bad experiences was a man groping my breast (through my sleeping bag!) in the lounge where the reclining chairs are on a night crossing on a ferry.
When I sat up and stared at him he smirked. He had a moustache and I can't see the combination of that particular kind of moustache and a smirk without shuddering.

Exactly Dittany. That's what I mean about feeling embarrassed when publicly groped by strangers. Logically they should be embarrassed as they've just done something incredibly scummy for all the world to see. But as you say, I felt that what had happened reflected on me in some way.

There are a lot of diffident chaps out there who wouldn't say boo to a goose let alone "nice arse" to a laydeeeeee

I think they all know it happens, of course, but I think many of them don't realise the scale/frequency of it.

I just realised that i stopped reacting in any way if I heard a car toot, whistle, shout or anything like that at all when I was about 18. it has caused a few problems when people I know have been trying to attract my attention! Could be potentially dangerous too maybe.

and the not being believed thing.
I wrote and told the ferry company what had happened afterwards (I couldn't find anyone to tell at the time) and from their response I always felt like they didn't believe me.

Yes and there's also the reaction of "what the fuck's she complaining about, she should be grateful someone fancies her/ what does she want, a medal/ waht's she making such a fuss about, get over it".

I do think there is some correlation with racial harassment - lots of people who are subjected to racial taunts don't bother to mention them because they don't want to have to face that "it's bad, but ffs aren't they used to it by now?/ hasn't s/he learned to deal with it?" reaction, which I think is even more entrenched about sexual harassment.

Me too ISN'T. I never look round when a car horn beeps. Never.

Yes they don't see anything wrong. Had a medical violation once. Well I considered it a violation, the two doctors didn't. Particularly the one who'd entered the room, failed to speak to me and shoved his hand up my fanoir without preface or introduction or a word from the other doctor who'd just removed his. I opened my eyes and it was a different fucking bloke up there. One of those lying silently crying moments.

They will blame the women. The two women in the video were blamed for the clothes they were wearing...

Which is shite as my bum was pinched in the tube, and same bloke pushed his pelvis against me while 8 months pregnant. I was wearing work clothes which was basically a black tent with a smart white shirt.