Discussion on Women's Hour about harrassment on the streets

[LadyBiscuit]

Did anyone hear this? I am absolutely furious. They had a woman from the London Anti Street Harassment campaign and a male journalist. He was saying that feminists were effectively trying to silence men and deny them a voice by campaigning against harassment.

Sorry I'm being very inarticulate but I was so cross.

I shall post a link when it's up on Listen Again.

Here's the link to have a listen.

To equate street harassment with freedom of speech is to dismiss the valid argument that women are making. To reduce this valid argument to a return to Victorian values is also dismissive. He's basically saying 'Shut up you stupid bitch'.

hehe, Love that site. "shouting at women causes cancer!"

sigh

As ever, it's not just the fact that some men hate women enough to actually shout those things at them that depresses me, it's the fact that so many supposedly intelligent and allegedly non-misogynistic men think it's ok....

The number of women who seem to think it's okay is even more depressing, imo. It's very refreshing to be able to talk about this without someone swanning in and saying how they find it flattering, and that we all need to lighten up and "let boys be boys". Boak.

I used to get a lot of hassle when I lived in London. Was flashed at on the tube and had one guy reach over and grab my breast and squeeze it at 10am in the morning outside Kings Cross Tube station. I remember one guy shouting at me from a van as he drove past 'Nice tits love' I shouted fuck off back. He looked totally confused and said 'What? Would you rather I said they were shit?' Um no I would rather you didn't say anything at all so I can walk down the road in peace thanks.

The other thing about it is that it is accumlative. The guy who thought it was ok to grab my nipple did so not that long after I had come out of an abusive relationship which I was really traumatised by. I was trying to deal with that and to have someone else invade my body like that was awful for me. I as really distressed and intimidated by it and it felt like sexual assualt was just everywhere which sadly it is. The reporter in that programme has no idea what it is like to constantly feel on the receiving end of sexual abuse.

I didn't hear the programme but it sounds like the male journo was a prick.

I live in London and have always had a lot of hassle (actually, less so now I'm clearly past my prime and less eye catching to the kind of bozos who harrass girls in the street!). I agree it can be incredibly scary and intimidating. I've been grabbed and groped and had a lot of quite aggressive sexual comments.

Interestingly I lived in Latin America a long time ago where men seriously considered harrassing women in the street to be an art form (no, really). A lot of it was supposedly romantic stuff (of the "you're an angel fallen from heaven" type) but some of it was really aggressively sexual and intimidating. I remember complaining about it to male friends there and they were totally baffled. The universal interpretation of it was that it was flattering and I should take it as a compliment.

I think we should be clear what we're talking about here though. In my book, grabbing and groping is sexual assuault, not just harrassment. I assume the Woman's Hour piece was more about verbal harrassment?

Oh, and the other thing to say is that it's not only intimidating, it can be - and I think is often intended to be - deeply humiliating. I recently had some guys in a van shout out "nice arse" to me when I was standing in the street with two male colleagues, one of whom I line manage. It was totally humiliating and undermining. They were too polite to react so I just had to pretend I hadn't heard it and carry on.

Aggressive, hostile, and intended to humiliate/undermine.

Yet another interview that cast feminists as the deniers of free speech who unreasonably try to stop men doing what they want.

It has infuriated me!

I agree it's all part of the same thing. I suppose my point is that at least sexual assualt is illegal whereas you're not going to go to the police because some bloke shouted out something vile and crude on the street.

It was about verbal harassment yes but the woman from LASH pointed out for her, that was followed by the men following her and then assaulting her.

I have also been groped and assaulted on the tube and street so many times I've lost count. But verbal harassment has happened even more frequently. And it is the fact that they quite often become aggressive if you ignore them which is so intimidating. I have had men turn round and shout their 'compliment' in my ear really aggressively if I fail to acknowledge them.

I cannot quite believe that anyone can be dim enough not to realise that being shouted at constantly by strangers when you're going about your own business is a real infringement of your liberties.

And you make a very good point chocolatestar - if you are the victim of a much more serious attack and just daring to go out again, then that verbal stuff can send you several steps back.

he just came over as silly because he clearly had no idea what he was talking about. If you wanted to argue for absolutely free speech (as a man) you would at the very least have to start with some acknowledgement of why women have a problem with it. If someone said 'Yes I understand that it is extremely unpleasant for women to undergo this but I think free speech trumps it for these reasons....' I would at the very least be interested in what those reasons were; doing what O'Neill did and implying that aggressive harassment is not so very different from flirting or banter just made him sound clueless.

Didn't hear it either, am at work

I have been asked for a blow job by a group of blokes who I had just had to listen to talking about me for the whole of a train journey late (10ish) at night where they and I were the only people in a carriage, as I was waiting for a bus afterwards. It was when I was a student and I still won't go on a train alone after about 8pm because of that one incident.

But what I think makes it worse is that some insecure girls see comments, beeping horns and leering as compliments. I remember being pleased as a teenager, waiting to catch a bus wearing a short skirt and counting the number of drivers that turned to stare. My sister used to go out aged 17-18 dressed in a little bit of fake fur ("cavegirl" outfit) to non-fancy dress nights out, for one reason only I'm sure. I read in a magazine lately a story about "real women posing naked" where one girl who had a huge scar up the front of her body as a result of weight loss surgery spoke out about loving her new shape and the number of men who now looked at her and made comments about her figure now that she was thin.

It is very very sad. I think that if men see insecure girls/women being "pleased" at "attention" then of course they will do it. (Not talking about the following/assaulting, just the offensive calls and leers really)

you just can't win. talk to them politely - and they will continue to follow you and whatever happens next people will say you have brought it on yourself. (Have had this happen.) Ignore them - they will get more and more aggressive to provoke a reaction. (Have had this happen - and people will say you shouldn't have been rude to them by ignoring them.) Shout back - I have never done this but I have heard far too many stories of the man becoming violent at this point.

Not sure my blood pressure can take listening to this prick, so I will just take your word for it that he is as moronic as he sounds. I have been groped and verbally harassed many times in public and everything people have said about the continuum of behaviour is true. There was the time I had my arse groped by some fortysomething fuckwit in a pub in Leeds, and then turned in disbelief to hear him say 'sorry love, but you've got a lovely arse' with a big shit-eating grin on his face, while all his mates cheered him on wearing identical grins. I would have smacked him but for the nagging feeling that this was a man that had no qualms about hitting a woman.

Then there was the time I was catcalled by a truck driver at some traffic lights - when I yelled at him to fuck off he shouted back 'I didn't want you anyway, you ugly CUNT' and drove off. I was 15 and wearing my school uniform.

And then there are the many, many times that a complete fucking stranger has told me to 'cheer up love, it might never happen', when I am just calmly going about my business and in no need of cheering up. Like women must wear a fucking smile on our faces at all times in order to be acceptable to men. And when I call them on it, they get pissed off and start shouting abuse at me.

Every woman I know has experienced these things, if not worse.

LadyBiscuit wrote - "I cannot quite believe that anyone can be dim enough not to realise that being shouted at constantly by strangers when you're going about your own business is a real infringement of your liberties."

I don't think many of the men who harass women or excuse it are that dim. I think they deliberately choose not to believe it, or just don't care, because it suits their agenda.

There are already laws in place to deal with assault and threatening behaviour.

LASH should focus on the big issues, and drop the unpolicable 'verbal' side of their campaign. One womans 'verbal assault' is another womans compliment.

They also need to drop the dodgy stats from their website. 1 in 3 women have had a stranger masturbate in front of them in public? Get real. They wont be taken seriously with that kind of misrepresentative rubbish online.

why ever would that not be real? I've seen it several times. Called the police about it once, they said yes we've had a number of calls - he was doing it somewhere (bus stop just across from the park, right next to a women's college) where as many women and children as possible would see him.

Why would 1/3 of women seeing a stranger masturbate in public not be real. I have certainly seen it. I think most of my friends have too. It's disturbingly commonplace.