Discussion on Women's Hour about harrassment on the streets

[LadyBiscuit]

Did anyone hear this? I am absolutely furious. They had a woman from the London Anti Street Harassment campaign and a male journalist. He was saying that feminists were effectively trying to silence men and deny them a voice by campaigning against harassment.

Sorry I'm being very inarticulate but I was so cross.

I shall post a link when it's up on Listen Again.

Here's the link to have a listen.

Should we ask Mumsnet to get him on here for a discussion? Or is that just unnecessarily adding to the stresses in our lives?

It's interesting actually. I haven't once heard a woman (myself included) being 'self-pitying' about being shouted at in the street. Sadly we more generally seem to take it as read that it will happen, and not even mention it.

I did get cross that Jenni Murray didn't ask him how he would feel if it was his sister/girlfriend/mother who was being shouted at (I think she said 'friend). Although he probably thinks that it doesn't happen to older women (i.e. mothers). I was running once and on my first circuit of the park a group of blokes shouted 'encouragement'. On the second lap I could see them gearing up to do so again, so when they did I stopped and said 'Would you say that to your mum?' Their expressions were lovely, but I realise afterwards it was quite a risky thing to say, given Vicki Simister's experience.

Good article dittany. What an unpleasant bunch of people they sound. Am also wondering how it is 'Marxist' to spend £150K on a second home in Broadstairs.

Good article by Vicki Simister. I particularly liked her point about how BO is more outraged by the reaction to the pope, than he is about the catholic church's systematic crimes against children. But tbh that is absolutely typical of the LM lot - they're so busy being conceited sixth formers, trying to find the different angle in everything, they just come across as precocious brats who aren't as clever as they think they are.

Sometimes they do have a point and it's interesting; but their emphasis is always, reliably wrong. So BO panics about the potential climate of fear that abusive men might be subjected to if the police took their regular harrassment of women seriously, while totally ignoring the actual climate of fear that nearly all women (not just the abusive ones) are subjected to at the moment. It's the total lack of proportion that always makes them look quite stupid, IMO.

Hello All,

I've just received the link to this thread. I'm really glad to see women's responses!

The debate on Women's Hour was frustrating (particularly as they edited out some of my descriptions of what else happens to women), however it was a good opportunity to demonstrate what kind of attitudes we are up against.

Tomorrow night at midnight I'm on Radio 5, debating the same thing with a guy from FHM.

Any advice, ladies?

Best,
Vicky Simster

Hi Vicky,
I'm guessing that if they're setting it up as an adversarial "debate" they'll want to paint you as the whinging feminist who doesn't think men should be allowed to so much as make eye contact with a woman in public lest she faints. I think it's important to be really clear - whatever the FHM guy says - that it's not harmless "banter" (banter involves an exchange and implies both parties are having a laugh), it's about intimidation and abuse.
There are lots of good examples on this thread.
Lots of examples of women being groped/flashed at/assaulted in public too.
Well done for getting media attention on this. It's really important and rarely talked about.

Hi Vicky

He may well be quite thick - what's his name, we can do your research for you :o.

Few points that would be nice to hear:

• not about changing the law, just enforcing it (is that right?)

• make a big deal about schoolgirls getting this treatment, because most people on here have agreed that it starts around 12 or 13.

• Likewise old ladies, because the fact that that happens underlines that it's not a "compliment", just a compulsion to perceive and comment on women as if they were public property

• the point that lots of people have made on here, that there is no correct response, and that behind every incident of catcalling is the threat of physical violence if the harrassers are "rejected"

-restriction of women's movement. Women too scared to go out on their own even in the daytime, if they do they keep their heads down etc, forcing women to hide as there is no other way to escape it.

• definitely make more of the kind of remarks that are being made. IMO it's far more along the lines of "fancy a fuck?" or "come over here and suck my cock" than any kind of sweet compliment. Could you make a better analogy than the one we heard on WH? So say something like: "it's not like having someone pay you a compliment, it's more like - for a man - having a gang of big muscly blokes follow you home shouting about exactly what they want to do to you."

Try to make a joke at his expense or make him look stupid if possible. feminists are humourless remember so if you get a chance to get a funny jibe in then please do so.

Good luck :)

Vicki I think hammer home the point that it
is bullying, also that it doesn't happen as a one off to women - it's not an occasional nuisance, it's a systematic, day by day occurrence to be endured. And also try to get the interviewer to focus on the men's behaviour - why do some men want to
bully women in the street, what is wrong with them? Why do they not want the police to stop women being systematically intimidated and frightened in the street?

Given that lots of women say that they are humiliated by this, why would the Nuts bloke want to humiliate them (as if we didn't know)? Or why would he deny that women are telling the truth about this? What motive do we have to lie about it.

Good luck you're doing a great job.

the so-called compliments are often phrased in a way which would not be considered a compliment if it was said in a normal environment between people who were actually communicating; eg someone once shouted at me 'Nice pair of udders!' and someone on here mentioned having 'Look at the legs on that!' (ie that, not her) yelled at her.

good luck tonight btw Vicky. Thank you for making the effort to do this and speak on behalf of women everywhere who are sick of this! You were great on Woman's Hour and I'm sure you will be tonight.

If they were genuinely just sweet compliments like 'You look nice!' and never followed up by aggression if you don't respond the way they want, I don't think we would mind. But they just never are, are they?

it is so weird that so many people men genuinely believe this is all we are talking about.

i used to fucking hate this

i remember so many times jumping out of my skin as some fucker shouted something while i was walking down the street

or stupid comments

and the eventual always being aware of being watched/looked at that after a while i could no longer walk down the street but would be walking down the street whilst seeing myself walk down the street through the eyes of idiots watching

vile vile vile

when i was a teenager my rage grew to a peak and so my best mate and i would drive around our town at night looking for men on their own who we could shout at and intimidate from the car

immature but satisfying

i seem to be invisible currently for some reason and i love it

it is NOT a compliment

all these shouters/catcallers are the women police ensuring that we all know our place and that the streets are not ours and that we can never forget it

"all these shouters/catcallers are the women police" - That's it, chibi. Bollocks to us "policing" men, the abusive ones are keen to let any woman know - whether she be old, young, pregnant, thin, fat - that walking down the street is never just walking down the street for them, it's displaying yourself for public comment. They are keeping us in our place, which is defensive and slightly scared apparently.

Sometimes I do get the complimentary type "you're beautiful" or "you have a lovely smile" or whatever. This should make me feel happy I suppose, but it doesn't because a) I'm always afraid of what the end of the phrase will be, e.g. "you're beautiful, I want to fuck you right now", and b) the nice commenters just remind me that my face, features and figure are apparently up for discussion at all times purely because I'm walking/sitting on a bus/shopping whilst female. And that makes me feel exposed and like I just want to hide away in my house and not go out at all.

It's totally different to being complimented on a night out, or by a friend or acquaintance. And it's totally different to being chatted up, where presumably the man is hoping for a positive response. A man leaning out of a van window and about to drive off, or shouting at you from the other side of the street, is not honestly expecting you to turn around and say "oh, you want to fuck me? Thanks so much, I'd be honoured, where can we go?". In fact in most cases if you did do that they'd already have driven off/passed by etc. They don't want a response, they are telling you that you are being watched.

A male "friend" of my mothers was making derogatory comments about a woman in the paper the other day. She wasn't a model or an actress, she was a scientist or inventor I think. He was going on and on about how unattractive she was and in the end (although had been trying to be polite) I wheeled around and said, "Ah, what's the headline? 'Woman Not Tempting To Fuck Shocker'?". If you're a woman apparently it's your duty to be fuckable at all times. Maybe that's why these street-harrassers think they're complimenting us with their gross-out sexual ideas - it's approval that we've come up to muster?

Is what we'd be like to fuck never irrelevant?

Hi Vicky

I'm really glad you've found this thread - hated that Brendan twat had linked to it as if it was something to be scoffed at.

There are two things in my head aside from all that people have said above. Firstly, it's fundamentally wrong that this is 'normal' for girls and women - so 'normal' in fact, that we don't even bother to mention it most of the time (unless it's seriously threatening or frightening like the horrific episode you described on WM). We expect comments and cat-calls - that can't be right surely.

The other thing is as people say above that banter is a two-way process. I'd like you to ask the bloke you speak to (if he's as twattish as Brendan) to define banter and flirting (or whichever innocuous phrase he chooses to describe comments like those above). Here's an example that I experienced this morning: an old man in a wheelchair that we see most mornings made some nice comments to the kids (he always does). Then he said to DD 'You are a pretty girl aren't you, just like your mother.' I smiled at him and said 'Ah, I bet you say that to all the girls' and we waved a cheery goodbye. That's banter.

I'd really genuinely like to know why men think it's ok to speak to random women in this way - see my question to my DH above (and to my dad today who said he'd have made Brendan look stupid if he'd been the interviewer). What are they hoping to gain from it? If it's a girlfriend they need to seriously re-think their tactics....

Good luck and let us know when to listen.

I am dying for Vicky to say something like 'Let's get this very clear. Suck my cock is not a compliment.'
....but they probably wouldn't let her, even at midnight!

yeah, what time, Vicky?

And thanks :)

Oh meant to say, please get in your excellent point about racist abuse in the street. I imagine that the Nuts bloke is probably much thicker than the LM bloke (although that's because I'm judging him by his readership, so it's not necessarily accurate, presumably he'll be slightly brighter than the wankers who buy his mag), so he will have more bog standard views and won't defend the right of white people to racially harrass black people on the basis of free speech. That is at least a consistent position of Brendan O'N's, whereas if the Nuts guy admits that racial harrassment is wrong, he needs to justify why sexual harrassment is fine.

Vicky, it depends on the terms of the debate I guess - if in the same way the 'front issue' is about whether to implement new laws, then I think it's important to be clear on whether LASH are asking for new laws, and why, or the enforcement of existing ones.

The 'just a compliment' idea is ludicrous IMO. If you ever react as if you actually thought they were complimenting you, the follow-up IMO is an explosion of anger at the idea that the harasser might actually have been complimenting you - at your arrogance at thinking that you were attractive. It is NOT about interaction, sexual or otherwise, it's about power.

anyone tempted to stay up to listen to Vicky on radio 5 then?!

Is it tonight - or did she mean midnight, Tuesday night?

oh yes, tomorrow night. I didn't read it properly. Sorry.

I'll stay up tomorrow - maybe they will have a phone in?

I'm with you Dittany - I don't like comments in the street either. I was just using that one as an example of banter as opposed to verbal abuse.

Actually I don't hear brilliantly so I miss a lot of things men say to me. Which is a good thing I guess! The tone or body language can't really be mistaken though.

What a shame the programme is on at midnight. Would be far better to have it at drive time so all those lairy men have something to think about.