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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Would you like to play "It's like Feminisim never happened" with me?

472 replies

Marchpane · 03/09/2010 14:40

I have a gem: I'm sorting out the home insurance renewal but since the last policy I have taken redundancy and I'm going back to do a postgraduate course. Which I told them.

They now have my occupation listed as "housewife" which is pretty yuk, but under employer's business it say "domestic service".

Presumably my husband is my employer and I spend my time in servitude to him? Hmm

Any one more?

OP posts:
MooncupGoddess · 30/10/2011 21:55

LOL at the special lady glass.

A couple of weeks ago a male work contact invited me to lunch at his West End club, to thank me for helping out on a project. The club does not allow women members, although it's not as bad as the Garrick, where apparently women visitors have to sneak in via a back staircase to avoid members being traumatised/overcome by lust.

I was the only woman eating in the dining room, although there were of course several female serving staff. And, worst of all, when I arrived at the club and explained I was XXX's guest, the doorman replied, 'Oh, your father hasn't arrived yet' Shock

EllaDee · 30/10/2011 22:11

constantcraving - thank god you said that, that thread is so strange!

The thing is, about one-third of it I would genuinely love to do, and would appreciate the support of a thread - being a bit healthier, drinking water and lemon instead of coffee, etc. etc. But when it is called 'princessing' and includes stuff like making sure you have your nails painted all the time, it's not for me.

It'd be lovely to have a feminist thread about actually feeling good about our bodies! I liked the 'resisting femininity' ones but I wish there were a space for me to concentrate on being genuinely healthier, without it turning into a diet-and-worry thread.

Eglu · 30/10/2011 22:43

I worked in a hotel about 10 years ago and our lovely young duty manager was dealing with an arsehole guest complaining about something. He asked to speak to a real manager, a man Angry

ConstantCraving · 31/10/2011 14:17

Ella - I also like the idea of a healthy (i.e. not paranoid about my body) healthy thread , but the 'princessing' thread, which is touted as 'fab and inspiring' makes me want to do the opposite in rebellion!

How about a self-improvement thread that doesn't focus on conforming to stereotypical ideas of femininity; e.g. improving your health, or improving the mind, rather than the appearance - reading 10 classic books / learning to drive / learning a language?

MsWeatherwax · 31/10/2011 15:21

Alright. My doctor (a few years ago) was a Mr Singh, a man of traditional values. I horrified him. First, I was living with a man. I was not married to him. (Actually we were just housemates). This confused him greatly, and he kept asking about 'my husband'. I was there to be signed off work with stress, which he did for me. He rather felt I shouldn't be working at all. Couldn't I just leave the stressful job and let 'my husband' take care of me?

Eventually, a few sicknotes down the line, he accepted that I did not have a husband. He saw that this was no doubt the cause of my stress/anxiety/depression. He (very kindly) explained that I needed to go back to live with my parents, so I could help them by doing washing and cooking and cleaning and they would give me money to buy myself treats and cheer me up in return. Then, they would find me a nice husband, and he would give me some babies so I could actually be happy (lack of babies causes depression in women).

This will probably out me if anyone reads this. I can't imagine a doctor more out of touch than he was. I didn't mind too much at the time because he was happy to sign me off and also because it was as amusing as it was horrifying. However, I did not follow his advice.

EllaDee · 31/10/2011 18:05

CC - I know I should love that, but just now the idea of doing anything like learning a language makes me want to wail like a baby. Too much like hard work! I'm not always a slacker I promise, just, right now ... I am! Grin

I think the thing with 'princessing' is, we're peddled this chain of logic:

  1. It's important to relax and take time for yourself Smile Smile
  2. It's fine to enjoy the frivolous/simple things Smile
  3. You will feel better about yourself if you are confident and attractive healthy Smile or Hmm?
  4. Ooh, brilliant - you can do both at once and spend shedloads! Shock
  5. And if you don't you Hate Your Body and Your Femininity and should feel Guilty. Angry

I totally agree with the first bits. I think it's important that we don't feel we have to be constantly improving our minds or being useful. It's just that chain of logic is pushed so relentlessly, it's hard to detangle them. I mean, obviously you know and I know that a bath full of bubbles is lovely whereas getting your bikini line waxed is going to be painful, but we're encouraged to blur distinction all the time.

I would actually love to spend time on my body that is not beautifying in the narrow 'feminine' sense. I don't think we should feel we have to ignore our bodies.

(Sorry, I dunno if that makes sense, just thinking it through.)

TheGrassIsJewelled · 31/10/2011 20:53

Regarding the Princess thread - it's more than possible to be a feminist and enjoy looking good. Surely?
And although the name is naff, it was originally set up before the Royal wedding, so is a joky reference to that rather than grown women wanting to be pwincesses.

EllaDee · 31/10/2011 20:59

TheGrass - yes, I think it's possible to be a feminist and enjoy looking good - that's why I was wondering about an alternative thread. I love the S&B section and the regulars on there have given me fantastic advice.

It's just that, for me, bits of that thread would make me feel ugly rather inspired. I'd love to do bits of it and replace the other bits with stuff that's more my style.

GreenandBlacksAddict · 31/10/2011 21:17

Having read the thread I feel its time to get Germaine Greer back out campaigning ! God the 1950's is still here !

TheGrassIsJewelled · 31/10/2011 21:32

ella that's exactly what I do, don't think it's prescriptive.
It's no more of a 1950s throwback thread than many others on MN.

EllaDee · 31/10/2011 21:39

I'm sure it's not prescriptive in the sense of everyone on there expecting all posters to do exactly the same stuff. But it would make me feel awful to go on it and have people talking about how they do things to their bodies to make them pretty/acceptable, when I don't do those things and don't want to think of my body as being ugly as a result. Obviously I'm not about to jump in and say so, any more than I'd tell someone on one of the (many) S&B wedding dress threads that I thought her choice was hideous.

What's the problem?

It is fairly normal IMO to object to '1950s' throwback-ism in the feminism section anyhow, isn't it? Even if it does happen all over MN (which I'm not convinced it does)

ConstantCraving · 01/11/2011 07:59

Nothing wrong with self improvement at all - but it does seem that self improvement for women is always about appearance and not brain.

EllaDee · 01/11/2011 09:42

Yes, I agree CC, and I'd also like it if we could separate 'appearance' from other things like health, or wellbeing, or body confidence (which is not the same as appearance!). I think it's really absurd the way we have bodies that do, frankly, amazing shit and yet we're encouraged to see anything to do with the body as a subset of beautifying ourselves - it is a bit daft really, isn't it?

AnonWasAWoman · 01/11/2011 10:24

Ah yes, that thread. It must be a parody (seriously, mmustn't it?).

StewieGriffinsMom · 01/11/2011 10:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BecauseImAWerewolefIt · 01/11/2011 10:52

It's like banging your head against a brick wall, isn't it?

And the irony is, almost everyone on the thread - and myself included actually (at least at the beginning) was trying to be helpful and give him ideas and strategies for coping.

And he wonders why he might not be welcome at the meet-up ... Grin

brokenwingedflier · 01/11/2011 10:57

I wanted to type the whole thing, but I can't find it now.

AA Gill, who is teetotal, wrote that it didn't affect his job as a restaurant critic because, 'The Blonde', (his long term girlfriend who he describes as his mistress) drank the wine and it was bonus for him because he ended with a 'tipsy milf'.

I still have a very long letter from my grandmother who was concerned that I put too much effort into books and homework and I had to do less because boys don't like girls who are too clever.

I don't mind the Gran thing, but ADRIAN is a fuckwit.

StealthPenguin · 01/11/2011 12:06

My eleven-year-old brother has been badgering my mum to tidy his room for months. She finally snapped and made him do it - and he grabbed thehoover, declared that it was disgraceful he was doing "women's work" and then cleaned his room with a grimace the size of the Eiffel Tower on his face...

And he comes from a household where everyone is equal, so God knows where he's picked it up from...

TheGrassIsJewelled · 01/11/2011 14:12

FIL (don't get me started on his attitude) went on a business trip to Hong Kong. Said what a shame it was that MIL and SIL couldn't go 'as there are lots of shopping malls there that they'd love to spend all day in'. MIL and SIL hate shopping. Hong Kong has a lot more to offer, but of course, silly ladies don't understand culture or history, do they?
On a second occasion, I bought a dress while on a family day trip. It was my money. As I queued, he said to DH 'Ooh, I hope she doesn't always spend your money like this'. DH and I weren't married; I was working full-time.

I could continue, but I will calmly drink tea instead.

As for the appearance debate, I think men have similar pressures to look good (improve your abs, use fake tan, don't go bald), just less so (apart from gay men who have it more so, as I understand). To me this is a reflection of the despairing state of humanity (judging on looks alone) rather than solely a feminist issue.

AnonWasAWoman · 01/11/2011 16:29

Crikey, stealth. What did your mum say?!

TheGrass - I've either known a load of incredibly slovenly men, or women have a heck of a lot more pressure on them. Women also spend far more than men in 'the beauty industry'. Anywhere where women's money is going is a feminist issue to me! Grin

Btw, if anyone's interested, I did start the thread I was pondering about and it is here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1333337-Wellbeing-Thread-whos-in

StealthPenguin · 02/11/2011 08:59

My mum sat there and laughed at first, but as he got more and more vocal about it she laid into him and said that if he doesn't shut it, he can hoover her bedroom, the living room and the hallway too!

That soon kept him schtum!

AnonWasAWoman · 02/11/2011 09:22

Good for your mum!

StealthPenguin · 02/11/2011 21:51

I was in stitches when I went round for a cuppa and she told me - IN HIS PRESENCE! He then went off on another rant (to his credit, partially joking!) about how he isn't meant to be keeping things tidy...

He was then made to do the dishwasher, with us taking the mick, otherwise he wouldn't have his XBOX that night.

That was FUN! Should make it a regular occurance

SparkyDuchess · 03/11/2011 00:36

oh, that thread that werewolef linked to! The OP has made me twitchy for a day or two, but the whole attitude just wound me up tonight, and I responded. I shouldn't have - obvious troll trying to get a reaction, but I bit.

Introducing myself - feminist, work in a very male dominated environment, married for 18 years, mother to one son of 12.5. Lazy about looks, but scrub up well. Certainly too lazy for princessing, but don't disagree with the thought behind it.

I want to shoot that OP, please please can I? Please?

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