Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

There is a lot on Jensen's site that is worth reading (not just the stuff that relates to feminism).

I suspect that Proleswoth is absolutely right that lots of people are more likely to listen to him because he is a man.

However his voice is very interesting because he asks the question 'what is it about my sex that means we consume this stuff?'.

The following short article is very disturbing - he puts the onus right on men and patriarchy with no shilly shallying about with stuff about how some poor sods consent to doing this stuff.

WARNING - it's about double penetration.

uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/dp.htm

"When I hear all these arguments about how 'it is just sex' and 'consenting adults' I generally wondering if the people making those arguments have seen the same porn as me."

I wonder that too Beachcomber. I have seen some absolutely mind blowing porn. It changes you.

BC, that article about DP is chilling, utterly chilling

That bloke speaks a painful truth

Thanks TBE - that is really interesting.

Sorry to hear about the experiences of your friends.

What you say about being frozen in finding young women attractive is very thought provoking.

There is very much a 'fresh meat' aspect to porn - I sense there is an element of the destruction of 'innocence' and the 'breaking in of young holes girls' and 'getting there first' that seems to be attractive to men who watch porn. There is something profoundly disturbing in the image of a 30 to 60 year old man masturbating to images of an 18 to 20 year old woman being sexually abused and humiliated by another man or men.

I'm just kinda stuck with why so many people not only don't see the problem with this, but are in denial that what is depicted is abuse and humiliation.

"I think people confuse their sexual feelings with truth. If it feels good therefore it must be good."

I think this is very true dittany.

Your man Jensen says this too;

"First, because of the way pornography works, most of the consumers don?t see the material as being saturated with cruelty or degradation; the sexual pleasure that pornography produces tends to derail critical viewing and thinking."

uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/paradoxofpornography.htm

He also argues that porn represents mainstream values in fact;

"So, there is no paradox in the mainstreaming of an intensely cruel pornography; pornographers aren?t a deviation from the norm. Their presence in the mainstream shouldn?t be surprising, because they represent mainstream values: The logic of domination and subordination that is central to patriarchy, nationalism, racism, and capitalism."

Disturbing, very disturbing.

Yes AF the article about double penetration is chilling - I hope I haven't upset you.

You haven't, BC, but the content of that article did

The articles by Robert Jensen are disturbing and the imagery and language in porn is misogynistic. But I think that Robert Jensen is wrong in the analysis he makes. He himself does say that he knows of no men or women who have ever participated in double penetration apart from porn movie actors. The same goes for cum facials etc. He is drawing the wrong conclusion in believeing that this is what masculinity is all about. He wants to get rid of masculinity because he thinks this is what it is.

What he is missing is the fact that porn is fantasy. It is very misogynistic, but I think there is an explanation for it. I think that male porn users know that porn is wrong, that watching porn is sterile and depressing, because it is not real, it is fantasy and it is divorced from reality. It is also ethically and morally wrong, since it objectifies women and a "sacred" act. Subconsciously the viewer knows that it is wrong to watch it. However, men are turned on by sex and want to get sex. The only way to get around the fact that it is wrong to watch it, and to still get the pleasure of being turned on by the sex, is to objectify the women and treat them as "dirty sluts who are gagging for it". That way there is no guilt in watching it, because the women were gagging for it. That is why it concentrates on defiling women with facial cum shots etc. The dirtier and more disgusting it is, the more licence is given to the viewer and he will remove his guilt because the "dirty" women were "begging" for it. For most men, it is just fantasy, and they do not carry out the acts that they see in porn movies with their girlfriends or wives, because they do have empathy with their girlfriends and wives and know that they don't want to do these things.

I think that porn is dangerous because there are some men who will not be able to distinguish the fantasy aspect from reality and the porn will have created fantasies in them that they never knew existed. These men may then be driven to carry out some of these acts in real life. There is some evidence that some sexual serial killer types may have been influenced by watching hard core porn. I think porn needs to be carefully controlled and censored to prevent it feeding sick fantasies in certain men.

It's funny isn't it, that in every other area of life, the fact that it feels good, is not a good justification for an action. Having sex with children feels good to paedophiles, but no-one argues (except paedophiles) that therefore that means it's OK. Rape feels good to a rapist, but you would be considered berserk if you argued that therefore it's OK. Porn is the one area where because of this insistence on the supposed consent of the performers, it's OK to get off on the sexual humilation and/ or torture of another human being.

Forgot to say - I agree that if you encounter porn from a position of accepting basic feminist premises of subordination and domination then you are much more likely to see it for what it is.

Also agree that women do not want to face up to disturbing notions about the men in their lives.

I'm sick to death of the 'consent' bullshit argument. I also wonder why people get so uppity at the fact that damaged and traumatised people are much more likely to consent to damaging and traumatising things than nondamaged people. I guess a lot of women run scared from this one because it highlights women's actual position in the patriarchy which is one of powerlessness. It also highlights that many many men are predators and manipulators of this position of subordination. There is a 'there but for the grace of God' aspect that obviously sends a lot of people into denial.

Shit - I've managed to depress myself now, even though I know all this stuff.

And yes I know that people are going to argue that rape and paedophilia lack consent.

But my point isn't about consent - it's about the acceptability of making a choice you know has ethical problems.

Sorry AF. I find this sort of stuff very disturbing too, I know I'm a bit like a dog with a boneish about it.

I seem to have low level fascination with porn and prostitution because to me they are the ultimate in blatant misogyny and patriarchy.

Rape is like that too except that whilst we are awash with rape myths, the vast majority of people accept that rape is wrong.

I agree with HerBeatitude, society has to make decisions about morality. We are in the position we are in with porn proliferating because of progressives and liberals who have lost their moral compass and believe that freedom and licence should be given to everyone. They are afraid to make moral judgements since they believe that these will impinge on the rights and freedoms of others. They are lost in a quagmire of moral relativism. I think this situation has been created deliberately in order to remove people's moral compass. The permissive media and society was intended to create that effect. The people who have created this situation have a moral philosophy consisting of "do what thou wilt".

Don't be sorry, BC

I find myself having a very visceral and tearful reaction to articles like this...the brutal honesty about what really happens in the industry is hard to stomach

This is why I lurk and avidly read these threads, but only dip my toe and post occasionally

I find my usual reasonable use of the English language completely escapes me when I try to articulate any useful arguments/insights

I think that the viewers of porn do think of it as fantasy. they want to see real sex but they believe that the porn actors, male and female, are willing participants who are creating a movie and who are acting. The millions who watch porn and keep the money rolling in for the porn barons do not want to see rapes, they don't think that they are watching rapes.

I didn't say that Ben Dover was a nice man, just that I don't think he wants to destroy women. I haven't read his website, because it is too depressing and also I think that all of his talk about "sluts" and "banging" etc. are used by him to increase sales, but I don't think he really believes it all. I think he uses it to increase business.

Me too, AF.

Though you are putting that across very well.

Thanks to Beachcomber for linking to Robert Jensen. There is a lot to think about here.

Claig what you say is interesting but it does seem to miss the basic point that porn is real and the appeal is that it is real. I think a lot of men have a kind of incredulous 'I can't believe she's doing that/having that done to her' reaction to porn and this is arousing for them - this means they are getting off on the reality.

If men can't comprehend that they are watching real women and they suspend all critical thinking and empathy when they get an erection then how the fuck are they running the world if they are that stupid?

Actually, they appear to be running the world with all the empathy and intelligence of a porn consumer so maybe you're onto something.

I agree it is truly horrible, that is why I am one of the few on here, who goes so far as saying that much of it should be banned and censored. I agree with Carmen, that the logical conclusion is to ban much of it, if you think that it is disgusting and harmful. I think it harms the moral fibre of the entire nation and I think the porn barons know that and that is one major reason that they produce it, as well as the ancillary objective of making money. The porn barons mean to harm society and that is why they are a menace that need to be opposed just like drug pushers.

I think we are were we are through a combination of capitalism and patriarchy.

I think liberalism is manipulated within this framework (although it can often be misguided and therefore dangerous).

I hear ya AF and wukter.