Porn

[msrisotto]

Tentative!

Um, the way I see it is that a lot of porn (I have heard) is appallingly violent and degrading for women. This stuff, ideally wouldn't exist and should be banned (how, I don't know, but ideally).

However, the porn that I have seen or enjoyed is not. I wouldn't enjoy porn that is degrading.

So, why is all porn bad? (in some people's opinions?) If it isn't degrading and is equal in its approach, for the entertainment of others, then I don't see any harm.

Is the argument that you don't get the 'good' porn without the bad?

Don't flame me please, I really want this to be a considered conversation.

Claig - at the end of the day it does not really matter if Ben Dover worships Mary Poppins.. the end result is sever and utter hatred and degradation of women. That is what porn is. So in my view that is detrimental to women.

How any man or woman can delude themselves and kid themselves that they are not watching rape if they watch pornography is beyond me.

All that profit born out of suffering.

But the Church is patriarchal and Iran is patriarchal and they are both opponents of porn. I don't think it is due to patriarchy. It is capitalism aligned to progressive beliefs which have undermined morality and religion. Hollywood is similar, it produces much misogynistic horror films that are disgusting and harmful to minds of the viewers who watch it. Hollywood supports and funds the Democrats and is always against any move to ban or censor their output. The mega-rich individuals who run Hollywood pump out harmful imagery and are given free licence to continue doing it.

The people opposing porn are the Mary Whitehouses, the Church and feminists. But the liberal media makes sure that it ridicules all three.

Where are our MPs?, has a single one of them ever introduced a private member's bill asking for some of it to be banned? Not just page 3 models, but the really disgusting, harmful hard core stuff?

The Church and Iran may be opposed to porn but they are both misogynistic.

I think the liberalists and progressives are having the piss ripped out of them by the capitalists and patriarchs. Patriarchy is much much more powerful and bigger than liberalism.

I'm off to bed now, thanks all for an interesting discussion again.

Agree that the Church and Iran are misogynistic, but they are also the patriarchy and do not want to see the proliferation of porn. If they had their way the pornographers would be in jail or worse.

Agree that the progressives have been duped, they are being used by others. The others are in control, but I don't think that they are the patriarchy.

Are you talking new world order type stuff claig?

no, Gordon Brown is the one who talks about a nebulous "new world order". I am talking about the real billionaires who control many politicians ("cabs for hire") and who control progressives and use them to achieve their aims. Often the progressives have been duped to think that they are fighting the billionaire capitalists, when in fact they are unknowingly carrying out exactly what they want.

the position statement of this group of feminists for free expression say it better than me.

that position statement sounds very similar to a position statement of the porn industry. It is not an impossibility for the very wealthy porn industry to fund moles to push its agenda by using the old divide and rule trick.

Blinks, what an excellent link. Thank you.

The Church and Iran may be opposed to porn but they are both misogynistic

At least Iran is not hyppocritical. It bans images of women. Saudi Arabia is a disgusting hypocrite of a country. WOmen ahve to have their faces covered, not allowed to drive or leave the house AND YET sexy images of women are all over the place, singers, on CD covers and magazines etc.

So WTF is Saudi... Can we please invade there first if we're going to invade anyone?

no problem carmen. they have interesting position statements on other issues. as an artist, i was esp interested in this one.

Oh FGS, that mission statement is the lamest load of bull - it appears to have been cobbled together by either people who have never seen porn or by people who have a vested interest in porn.

As claig points out the view is exactly that publicized by the porn industry - if you spout this stuff you are defending the porn industry and being very blinkered.

Feminists For Free Expression (who appear to be the misogynistic kind of feminist as they wish to see prostitution decriminalized) claim that porn is not obscenity for example.

They define obscenity as; "To be illegally obscene, a work must appeal to the prurient interests, depict sex in a patently offensive way, and lack serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value."

OK - tell me blinks or Carmen in what way is a film of a young women dressed up to look underage being DPed whilst being called a slut, a bitch and a whore in an aggressive manner not offensive - how is it of any artistic value? In what way are depictions of surgically 'enhanced' women sucking on penises that have just been in their anuses of value? What is the value in a website which describe women in racist and sexist terms as fuckholes to be used by men because they serve no other purpose in life? How is that not offensive (don't you have a problem with racist sexist sterotypes?

FFE (the misogynistic feminists) claim that;

"Pornography is material designed to arouse and has no legal or consistent definition. Each person's definition depends on her upbringing, sexual preference and viewing context. One woman's "trash" may be another's treasure or boredom. "

What a bummer - FFE appear to be so thick that they don't actually know what porn is so they can't possibly object to it. (I don't see how they can logically defend it if they don't know what it is. I guess I was right, they have never seen any porn).

They imply that watching violent films and pornography are similar activities to riding bicycles (well, now I know what to do with my kids on a rainy Sunday instead of going out on our bikes!).

They believe that because men have forced women to do sexual things for like ages, even before they invented cameras and the internet, that makes porn ok - this is an issue of force and irrelevant to sex. Hang on a minute I thought all those women in porn were freely consenting and not being forced to sexually service men (Good excuse for a paedophile or a rapist though, how handy!)

The FFE say that because some women watch porn and think it is a all just a lovely dream to get off to, that makes it ok for real women to catch STD, become alcohol and drug addicted, get depressed and suicidal, develop PTSD because they are dissociating from the bodies in order to go through the trauma of being sexually violated on camera. What a crock.

They say sexism not sex is the problem - they obviously haven't watched any porn if they don't think it is sexist.

For some reason they mention banning sex as not being a solution to sexism - no shit sherlock.

OK, brace yourselves, I just spat my tea out at this one;

"AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases have made it a public health necessity to encourage sexual fantasy material that offers women and men safe alternatives to unhealthy sexual contact."

Um, what about the poor sods in the porn doing ass to mouth and drinking the cum of multiple partners (who all have multiple partners), don't they count? Ah, ok I geddit, the FFE think porn is fantasy. It would appear that they really are stupid.

They then go on to talk some clichéd crap about the slippery slope of censorship.

There's more, but my brain is sore from being addressed as though I have no critical thinking abilities and no sense of reality or have never seen any porn.

I'm not really interested in engaging any more here because anyone who doesn't toe the party line is a misogynist, an anti-feminist, callous, lacking in humanity etc. etc. etc.

Which is crap. I think we have a lot of common ground. I don't want to see people exploited. I don't want to see women abused. But there are points I disagree on.

Yes, 'FFS' of course I can see women are being hurt and I'm interested in finding a solution to that. But it seems that most of you just want to engage in hysterical handwringing - after all, there is no call for action (ban, regulation etc.) What exactly do you want from this thread? A whole lot of people to say, "OMG, isn't it awful! Porn shouldn't exist!" Any attempt at intellectualising the problem is lacking in empathy. Well. Great. Carry on.

I think there's a lot of valid discussions to be had in several themes and topics that have been raised here, but I personally have lost interest in joining in on this thread because of the name calling and shouting.

I'm not really interested in being your pantomime villain.

Oh and another thing that makes the FFE 'statement' on porn such a load of bull is that they omit to cite any of their sources or back up any of their assertions with references.

This is intellectual dishonesty.

If they have some fabby studies up their sleeves showing that porn is good for keeping sexual violence rates low then why aren't they citing them?

I want to see the figures and studies that justify the the ridiculously simplistic statements they make about sexual violence and abuse. Otherwise I cannot evaluate them and I must question why the FFE do not want people to do so.

FWIW, I completely disagree with claig but I have a lot of respect for her as a poster after this thread. She has put her point across really well without resorting to namecalling, emotional manipulation and character attacks.

Well, you've driven me away and judging by many other comments on MN, plenty of people who would consider themselves feminists have also run from this board or hidden it because of the aggression and evangelism.

I don't think you're really going to get 'porn users' to listen if you can't even begin to find common ground or at least debate in a civilised manner with people who mostly agree with you.

Dittany et al,

Firstly, as a man, maybe I am naive but I really do not think that MOST men want to see women humiliated in porn or any other genre. To be fair, it does beg the question as to why this kind of sex is so prevalent in modern porn. However, I do believe a lot of businesses are controlled by a small cabal who try to manipulate the demand of the consumers, as opposed to the consumers driving demand. For example, I do not know how the fast food business has driven more and more people to eat dangerous rubbish. There was no demand for a pink flavoured concoction of e numbers before someone decided to manufacture and market it. In addition there is still a demand for the old fashioned "readers' wives" type of porn which is all about loving consensual sex. (I am talking about this from the perspective of the viewer and make no comment on the perspectives of the participants).

Most of us like and respect the opposite sex and would like to be in an equal (though not necessarily competitive) relationship.

We have crossed swords before and I know that you like to see everything through your "feminist" perspective which, to my mind, does presuppose that all men have an unpleasant hidden agenda. I suspect you will deny this but it is the subtext of all your posts.

Where we agree is that a lot of today's porn is nasty and misogynistic and not a good way for any young person to learn about relating to the opposite sex. Do you really believe that in labelling porn as the "patriarchy's" revenge, it will help to do anything about it (assuming it is even possible). Far better to get a consensus of people of both sexes who fear for the effect it is having on their children. Then you might actually achieve something.

That's exactly it. I refuse to 'accept suffering described'?

Right. Yes. Prostitutes and porn stars are all happy hookers who love their work. Ben Dover or whoever the fuck he is is a saint for supplying them with jobs. The porn industry is a wonderful place with health benefits, great salaries and love all round. That's exactly what I've been arguing all along. Or maybe not.

The problem Dittany is that you want me to read all those testimonials and go, "OMG, that is terrible, we must stop porn right now" (I assume)

Well, I read those testimonials and I go, "OMG, that is terrible" but I can see complexities and different solutions. I can see other reasons for those things happening than the reasons you see. I can see negative consequences for unrelated industries if porn is villainised.

But these aren't part of your agenda. I accept there is suffering. I just don't accept all your definitions and rationales. But I'm not going to debate those definitions or rationales any more because whatever I say, I am the 'baddie' because I don't agree with your exact viewpoint.

What a shame because I think a lot of what you say is very valid.

Larry, if you're worried about porn's effect on children, do feel free to get a consensus of people together yourself. You don't need Dittany to do that for you.

Also, rainbow parties are an urban myth.

Whoever actually said I used pornography?

The only way you're changing my behaviour is to make me probably hide this entire board and look into a membership to FFE. Well done.

Ok Carmen, I think you're a good egg so I'm going to try to explain something that is important to me. (All of what follows is my opinion I make no claims to speak for the feminist movement or for women in general).

OK - I wrote a lot of stuff and then deleted it because all I really want to say is this;

there can be no watered down feminism.

This stuff about a 'party line' is very odd to me - feminism is about defending women's right to be treated as equal human beings. That's all.

Carmen I have asked you a lot of direct questions on this thread in an effort to engage with you - you have avoided nearly all of them.

Feminism is not for the faint hearted and there are lots of harsh realities to be faced within it. (See the intellectualising discussion we had last night!).

There can be no shilly shallying around if we want to get anywhere - putting words on feminist issues and sharing those words with others is of vital importance - please don't put it down.