class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

Chibi, check out the weekend section in the Telegraph for a good idea of 'middle class concerns'. Getting your children onto the best uni course. Finding the best au pair. Getting ahead in the property 'game'. Where to buy a second home. What to cook with fresh, seasonal produce bought from farmers makets and box schemes. Gap years. Where to eat, where to holiday, where to take short cultural breaks.

There's a great deal of wannabe simplicity. Like 'cool camping' under your Cath Kidston tent and 'downshifting' to a life of self-sufficiency (paid for by the income on your property portfolio of course).

The reality is that most of the middle class can't afford a great deal of this but often seem to get themselves ever deeper into hock in order to at least appear to have some of it.

Hmm, working class concerns. Getting a job, mostly, or getting your kids through school to the point where they can get a job (uni or no uni). Putting food on the table, affording treats like a holiday or days out, eating out sometimes. Buying things to last.

(very simplistic generalisations, sorry)

Incidentally, do we think there is such a thing as an underclass?

SAF, yes I agree. But that is why feminism has to be a grass roots movement. Feminist writing should only be a small part of feminism, and we have to accept that until there is a radical social change, the media will never reflect the lives of ordinary women or men.

'As a consequence of this, I personally do not think that middle class/working class should be divided based on manual work'

I agree for instance when I was younger an still now my parents have someone who comes and does their washing, ironing etc. However now I work in a manual labour job myself as does my husband.

'So a nurse, a voluntary sector worker, most primary school teachers - these are by income working class jobs.'

However I would say these are decent waged jobs. My mum works in one of these jobs and gets £20 an hour and has a great standard of living from it which to me is a fantastic rate of pay and she has always made more than my dad. They live a very affluent lifestyle from it so I definitely dont think they are low paid jobs!

That's the kind of thing I meant in my post upthread Spiritmum.
Does that mean I am the same class as someone who writes for the Telegraph?

SM, I definitely think there is an underclass - people who are very vulnerable, like care leavers and people who have serious mental health problems and no family support.

Sorry, wutker, scanning, multitasking, missing posts!

So what does feminism have to offer the underclass then? Or does the underclass transcend gender issues?

You said it better than I did spiritmum :)

The DailyTelegraph is probably a good medium for understanding 'middle class' concerns.

Sunny, £20 an hour is over £35,000 a year. That is not what most people in primary school teaching, nursing or voluntary sector workers get paid. Despite that, it would still only get you a mortgage of just over 100,000 and the average house price is 200,000. How is it then a middle class or affluent income?

Oh spiritmum, I was just struck by the coincidence, please don't feel you should apologise.

Interesting how the 'underclass' is always portrayed as 'Shameless' type characters.

Ok,Milly - but that does differ significantly from how class is perceived now.Why use class as a description at all - why not just refer to income?

Could I also say that as a self identified Middle Class Person the weekend section of the Telegraph does not in any way represent my concerns,or the concerns of my friends?
Maybe I'm not,after all..
I think the problems of people in the underclass include gender issues,but at the level where the gender issues are the least of their problems.

SM, one thing I think feminism should be looking at in terms of the underclass is provision for service users. Areas which have lots of female service users (self harm, prostitution for example) are really underfunded compared to issues that have mainly male service users (problematic drug users for example).

Pogles, I think that we still need to talk about cultural aspects of class because they are still responded to in a way that causes prejudice, encouragement of debt, and damage people's authentic experience of life. But as I said earlier, that is a secondary issue to income.

I suppose I am middle class, or more accurately, tranitioning to middleclass (according to some definitions) and they're not my concerns either.
But there is a grain of truth in the notion that mc people expect the best, and will do all in their power to get it. And their power is not nil, varying degrees of course) WC people have very little power over their jobs, their DC's education, where they shop.

That's it SAF, they expect & push for the best.

Maybe it's expectations of a certain standard, in everything.

SAF, yes I agree with that also. But I think it also has a parallel with sexism. A middle class man and his wife are far more likely to be taken seriously be officialdom and listened to than a single middle class woman is. I believe that for many women, their middle class respectability is created by their marriage status, not their job.

'Sunny, £20 an hour is over £35,000 a year. That is not what most people in primary school teaching, nursing or voluntary sector workers get paid. Despite that, it would still only get you a mortgage of just over 100,000 and the average house price is 200,000. How is it then a middle class or affluent income?'

We only make £21k between 2 of us both working and have a property that cost £106k. We were told we could have way more than that as well and we were offered 170k but I said that was a bit too much at the time. All the people I know have properties of that kind of amount or more and are on way less than 35k!! My best friend has a house of 150k and they are both on minimum wage and both work full time. Up until recently it was easy to get a really big mortgage on a tiny wage with a low deposit.

Yes, but you can't borrow that much anymore. And lending people who were on low incomes huge amounts of money for housing which they then couldn't afford to pay for was on of the major causes of the financial crisis.

I think that whole idea that people can afford such house prices is part of that delusion that £35,000 makes you an affluent household in the UK. It doesn't.

Also MillyR my friend was offered £90k fo the value of a place and an extra loan of 10k. He was only making £17k and was on his own. It was a 110% mortgage with no deposit and he got it in 2006 before all this happened. This was common place and has only changed since the recession.

'Yes, but you can't borrow that much anymore. And lending people who were on low incomes huge amounts of money for housing which they then couldn't afford to pay for was on of the major causes of the financial crisis.

I think that whole idea that people can afford such house prices is part of that delusion that £35,000 makes you an affluent household in the UK. It doesn't.'

I dont know anyone that has lost their house or property though. I can still afford holidays, nights out, trips, clothes etc and pay the mortgage on 100k and we are both only practically minimum wage earners. My friends with the 150k house on minimum wage have been to Spain and Tenerife this yearand they have no debts. It just depends on whether you are organised with deals sometimes. Just because you are on minimum wage doesnt mean you cant afford a mortgage