class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

I don't know why you are shouting. Various people have said we don't really believe in there being such a thing as a middle class, so it pretty much follows that we can't define middle class concerns.

But Dittany then your definition of what constitutes working class emplyment differs enormously from millyr's.

And mine would probably be different again if I sat down and thought about it.

Which is why I think it is better to define clearly what group we are talking about, rather than use class as a shorthand.

what problems do working class people face?

what problems do middle class people face?

i have worked in jobs that some of you might consider working class (waitress, cook, seamstress) and middle class (teacher) but i was the same person throughout, i don't know that my problems such as they were were class related

can anyone clarify??

My own personal definition - mc expect and aim for the 'best'
wc - expect and aim for 'adequate'

Worklife balance, education, vegetables (Aldi offers vs Oranic home grown form farmers market).

MC people, while maybe only being able to afford Aldi offers, feel that by rights they ought to be eating organic.

Translated to feminism, or perhaps any social movement, mc people expect and aim for the best treatment in their individual lives and for their group, wc people think that while things may not be perfect, they are adequate.

Huge generalisations there, but that's the problem with trying to define huge categories.

saf you misunderstand me.

I am not saying that the problems that people experience are all exactly the same.

I am trying to say that as these class labels mean different things to different people, then they are, well, meaningless.

So if you want to talk about issues affecting the "working class" then why not say "issues affecting people who are low paid" or "issues that affect people who are reliant on state benefits", if you want to talk about "middle class" issues then talk about "women in professional careers who have difficult choices when they have children" or whatever it might be.

I just think the class thing is too vague. If it is used as a point of reference we all end up talking at cross purposes.

ISNT, I would then define the difference as being a person who is heavily reliant on the state is working class.

So if you are reliant on state education, state healthcare and the safety net of a benefits system should you be unable to work, then you generally have working class concerns.

i'm sorry for shouting i am really confused

the whole thing seems v circular to me

it looks like this:

middle class concerns are different to working class concerns, and a middle class person has ddifferent problems to a working class person. but we can't define middle class concerns because there is no definition for middle class. and a working class person may or may not have a degree and work in a call center. or be a doctor. luckily, everyone knows what we mean when we say middle class and working class.

well everyone but me

to me as an outsider, it is like you are talking in code, which i suppose it is.

I notice that my examples all revolve around money.

Interesting.

ISNT, okay I see what you are getting at. I agree that when people keep using different definitions of middle class, it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion. It is also meaningless as a self-defined identity.

But I think for me personally, a concept of working class is very important for my own understanding of what constitutes social inequality. So I think discussing it is of value.

Chibi, we're not talking in code. We are just having a debate about what middle class and working class means, which means as a group we are trying to understand each other's definitions.

MillyR,are you defining class solely on the basis of the work people do? Presumably,or the argument that there are more working class than middle class women wouldn't apply?
I would say I am middle class - based on what parents and grandparents did,etc - but I am also middle class by virtue of my own job.
But if I worked in a factory I'd still define myself as middle class because of my background.And my attitudes etc would be ,um,middle class...
chibi,it is all very confusing,and I agree with ISNT that the best solution is to be very specific about the group you want to discuss.

Hmmm. Trying to define 'class' concerns very difficult.

Middle class concerns - I don't want to be seen as common, I am worried about how people think of me. This is a big concern of mine. I would rather shop at Sainsbury's than Asda because we all know what sort of people go there. Oh, and I want my children to go to a good school, but what if I don't approve of private education? Wait a minute, I can afford a home in the catchment area of a decent school.

I can't do working class concerns because, as you can tell from the above I am middle class.

can anyone please please clarify

can i have some examples of middle class concerns vs working class ones? or middle class values vs working class values?

i know you are not actually talking in code but it feels as though you are

reminds me of having the rules of cricket explained to me over and over to little effect lol

chibi - I am not surprised you are confused and don't blame you for shouting!

Class is endemic in Britain. Very much so. Hence this rather involved and circuitous debate.

That's quite a good defintion millyr. I like that. That one puts a line without having to go into jobs. It also puts the vast vast majority of the population in teh working class category, including many in the "professions" - I guess the bankers etc are the new "professions".

Makes sense. It's another money based one though.

chibi yes it is all code

I'm off to bed. I still think it's best to define what groups we are talking about rather than referring to class. I am going to try and challenge people to define who they are talking about in future, chibi maybe you could do the same!

x posts

thanks janos

Oh but before I go...

No-one has defined the lower middle, middle middle and upper middle classes yet.

Brief defintions by morning please.

Pogles, what I am trying to say is that while I agree with Dittany on what has traditionally been the division between working class and middle class, I believe that division to be sexist.

As a consequence of this, I personally do not think that middle class/working class should be divided based on manual work. I think it should be more closely related to income. It was all very well saying that a female nurse was middle class when lots of people lived in nuclear families and women's wages were considered pin money.

No many women live alone, or as the only adult in a household with children. As a consequence of that we need to change the class definition, so working class refers to people whose household income is low, and most households on a low income are female households. So a nurse, a voluntary sector worker, most primary school teachers - these are by income working class jobs.

I think it is of political importance that there is solidarity between people on low incomes.

I would like to point out those are not my viewpoints...am speaking from a middle class perspective/mindset. Was meant to be a little parodic.

Was trying to explain that is what middle class people worry about..in my own cackhanded way!