class/social standing and Feminism

[sparky159]

is there a place for working class people in Feminism?
ill answer my own post to as why im asking this.

saf also... Some of the poorest people in the country and the most vulnerable are recent immigrants. By definition they are not a part of the british class system, so when we talk about eg "the working class" and what problems they might have we are missing a whole load of people out.

Talking about class = hours of fun for any british person
Using it as a basis for a debate = lots of people talking at cross purposes

Well, as the daughter of someone very working class who did 'make it', in our experience what divides the upper from the middle classes isn't so much money as security and self-confidence. My mum has always involved her family in her work and it would be her middle class colleagues that would be rude or patronising to my grandmother or my dad.

Interesting about accent, too, I speak estuary and often drop my 'h's and 't's', especially at home with dh as his accent is more cockney than mine. Dropping consonants in speech is considered far worse than regional accents IME and I remember many moons ago a thread on here stating that TAs shouldn't be employed if they do this.

Still, I do love the fact I can spot the genuine East Enders from the wannabes.

yes please

again everyone is referring to 'middle class standards' as if we all know what is being talked about

what do middle class feminists think about
the pay gap
sexual violence
gender roles

for example

and how is this different to what workiing class feminists think?

But what is a middle class background?
What is a working class background?

Working class used to = factories, right? that sort of tihng. Shipyards and car builders and so on. Those jobs largely don't exist in this country any more...

A lot of people use "working class", these days, as shorthand for people on benefits.

It's all very confusing.

"The class thing...I wonder if this is why people are trying to claim that Katie Price is a feminist icon? Is it a way of keeping working class women firmly in their place by getting them to think that unless they look a certain way and are prepared to sell themselves then they can forget any idea of success and independence"

I think that's a very good point actually spiritmum.

Presenting it as a choice when it's designed to keep them in their place - ie look a certain way, don't get ideas above your station - that type of thing?

my mother grew up malnourished on red cross care packages

my father didn't have shoes until he was 9

both went to university

are they middle class? aristocracy? working class?

my father was a teacher, then owned a restaurant, and now works as a security guard-- what class is this?

both have the accents of people who learned english well out of their childhoods - how does this affect their class status?

No idea chibi.

Middle class probably. Most people are middle class, one way or another. Even the ones who say they are working class.

Honestly chibi don't worry about it. it's a british obsession, and meaningless to anyone who hasn't grown up immersed in it. And even then we can never agree.

If people on a thread start talking about problems faced by a certain class, why not challenge them to define the group that they are talking about. I am certainly going to start doing that. This is all nonsense.

SAF, well I don't think it does need much of a story. I know many educated women from middle class backgrounds who are in working class jobs. And lots of middle class women's jobs are really poorly paid anyway - nursing, voluntary sector stuff, librarians.

According to the equality and diversity trainer, 15% of the female cleaners at our local council have a degree.

Half of the teaching assistants at my DD's school have a degree. The dinner lady has a degree in biology. In my previous job women were paid between 15 and 17 grand in the voluntary sector - we all had degrees.

The problem with you defining working class as being things like working in Asda is that it hides the fact that women's roles are paid at working class rates, even when they require a middle class level of education in order to perform them.

i am not too worried about whatever my own class is, tbh i never really gave it much thought beyond knowing that i would have to pay my own way in all things - there are no inheritances or trust funds for me (as for most!)

however

it seems to be v important here in terms of giving weight to certain voices over others - a 'working class' perspective is worthier or more authentic than a middle class one

that said i still would like clarification over how working class feminism differs from middle class feminism

Just saw dittany's definitions and think that absolutely the upper/aristocracy definition is correct and unchanged.

As for the rest of it - with the disappearnace of heavy industry I think it's all got in a confusion.

Whether we call all the people working who aren't in the top pay brackets "working class" or "middle class" makes no odds, it's all the same people with the same problems whatever you label them.

Call centres = the new 'workhouses'.

Oppressive working environment, despite the 'spin' .

Definiitely working class (have extensive experience of them).

SAF, I think we are coming to some sort of agreement than. Are we agreeing that most jobs including librarians, teachers, nurses, most bank staff and so on are not middle class jobs.

So if your parent is a nurse or a teacher or works in a bank, your upbringing is probably really similar to the life of someone whose parent is a builder or a postman and bears no real resemblance to the life of the doctor's child.

And when a teacher's child becomes a cleaner, that is not unusual, because there isn't a great amount of class difference?

Chibi, if you want people to say how working class feminists are different from middle class feminists, then you have to define who those groups are.

At the moment, I would say working class feminism is different to middle class feminism because women are a minority group within the middle class but women are the majority group in the working class.

sorry for shouting but WHAT ARE THESE MIDDLE CLASS CONCERNS!!!???!!!

and how do they differ from working class concerns

thank you

the middle class was originally the "professions" wasn't it. So you had the landowners who dodn't have to work, and everyone else had to work, and they were the working class.

Then they invented the middle class for people who were educated and worked in certain professions, as being somewhat elevated over the other workers. Originally doctors, lawyers and ... one other... forgotten. I'm sure there were originally 3 "professions". I once had a row with a bloke at work over a car insurance quote, (not a very serious row), as he wanted to put his occupation as "professional", and I said that was bollocks as he didn't work in one of the professions, in fact he had no professional qualifications of any sort. But he did insist on elevating himself Like I say, it's all silly. But still fascinating