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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rape within marriage

1000 replies

tabouleh · 26/08/2010 15:28

Yes unashamedly a thread about a thread.

It is like entering the bloody twilight zone over there. Sad

Jeez there are MNers basically caring more about OP's husbands right to sex rather than believing OP and helping her.

Totally understand if this gets deleted for being a thread about a thread - but if it gets more of the feminist viewpoints onto that thread then great.

OP posts:
edam · 26/08/2010 20:59

'Other people dont get away with commiting serious crimes because they "thought"'

Excellent point, dignified.

dittany · 26/08/2010 21:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

skidoodly · 26/08/2010 21:01

Thank goodness for this thread.

I read the linked thread earlier and it was a weird cognitive dissonance.

I was thinking "yes, sex is important in a marriage, the husband must feel sad and rejected, but, but... HE JUST RAPED HIS WIFE, WTF is going on here?"

I thought I was just overreacting as usual, and closed it down because I thought it would be unhelpful to be the one saying it might be time to think about getting out.

Beachcomber · 26/08/2010 21:05

Just wanted to add to the support for you here anchor.

scallopsrgreat · 26/08/2010 21:06

ISNT - you are so right. My husband sounds just like yours as I am going through that stage of low libido at the moment. A fondle as a sign of closeness or even a precursor to sex is very different to penetrating someone who doesn't want sex. I seriously could not imagine my husband doing that and he would be horrified if I thought that he could.

I had a good friend whose husband insisted on having sex every night (alarm bells ringing already!) and even had sex with her when she was asleep. She couldn't see anything wrong with that and couldn't understand why the group of us she told were shocked. Mind boggles! It really is ingrained in some people that the needs of their partner takes precedence over their needs/rights/legalities/moral boundaries!

marantha · 26/08/2010 21:07

NO, Dittany that is not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that if a woman who behaved in the scenario I described, then it would be reasonable for the man to think, 'She wants sex'.

If he then made a pass at her and she said 'No' then I would expect him to back off- although in all honestly I would expect him to be a bit miffed and sexually frustrated by the incident.

I also don't understand your last sentence. Surely part of the definition of rape is that the man knows his partner isn't consenting, therefore, if a man genuinely thinks she's consenting how can it be rape?

dittany · 26/08/2010 21:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

msrisotto · 26/08/2010 21:10

MARANTHA What the fuck are you on about? This ridiculous little scenario you're making up in a crap attempt to prove a misogynistic point is nothing to do with what we're all talking about!

The fecking definition of rape - look it up, there have been several attempts to show you here which you're obviously ignoring.

Beachcomber · 26/08/2010 21:13

Good god, I regularly have a shower just before getting into bed and then go and lie naked on the bed in a sort of star shape. I live in a hot country and do this because I AM HOT.

DH would never saunter over and try to put his penis in me without asking if I wanted to have sex.

marantha · 26/08/2010 21:15

dittany OK, but if part of rape being rape is that the man willingly and consciously has sex with a womman without her consent, then has a man who genuinely thinks his partner was agreeable to sex committed rape?
In your view, that is.

skidoodly · 26/08/2010 21:16

"Surely part of the definition of rape is that the man knows his partner isn't consenting"

No, for sex to be consensual the man has to KNOW his partner IS consenting.

Surely that's not too much to ask?

Do you think it's right that if there is doubt about consent that makes it OK for the man to just go ahead?

No, if there is doubt about consent he must stop.

By your logic it's fine for a man to have sex with an unconscious woman because he can't ask whether she wants it, so he can just go ahead and presume it's OK.

ISNT · 26/08/2010 21:17

marantha honestly if I was with a person and they described what you describe in your "scenario" I would think that there was something very wrong. i would certainly not be proceeding post-haste to sex, I would be trying to ascertain whether they were feeling quite themselves.

I also think that with rape the man has to reasonably believe that the partner isn't consenting, which is very different to knowing. A man can always say he didn't know. He might not know, for example, if he had bound and gagged his partner so that she could not indicate verbally whether she consented or not. Of course in that case, his belief that she was consenting (or more correctly, not "not consenting") would be unreasonable.

And that brings us back to the point about women being assumed to be in a permanent state of consent. I agree that non-consent should be assumed unless indicated otherwise. At the moment it is assumed that women are consenting unless they indicate otherwise, and this does not seem to be working out well for them.

dittany · 26/08/2010 21:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dignified · 26/08/2010 21:23

therefore, if a man genuinely thinks she's consenting how can it be rape?

Because Marantha, how on earth can a man honestly be confused about whether a woman wants to have sex with him or not ?
If men are so fucking daft that they genuineley think women are consenting to sex why arent they trying to shag their neighbours , colleauges or freinds wives ?

Rapes within relationships arent unusual. Do you think the ops H would have done the same to a woman he was on a date with ?

ISNT · 26/08/2010 21:26

TBE I have registered on that other site and am waiting to be given the all clear Grin

I was thinking the other day that I would like somewhere a bit less combative to post but I like talking to you lot. I was wondering about an ongoing "chat" thread on this topic? Would anyone be up for that? I'm not on facebook either.

Portofino · 26/08/2010 21:26

In the case of today which is under discussion though, the guy tried it on. Op got up and went to bathroom. She din't consent, and left the room. How did we get onto force, restraint etc etc. I agree his behaviour is not ideal, but RAPE - come on!

Prolesworth · 26/08/2010 21:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

msrisotto · 26/08/2010 21:28

I have registered as well but I dunno, this place is nice and busy. I would be difficult to be moved Grin

Prolesworth · 26/08/2010 21:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

dignified · 26/08/2010 21:31

There doesnt need to be force , he knew she didnt want to have sex but penetrated her anyway.

I,ll say it again , imagine the op took her car to the garage , the mechanic trys it on, op says no. He then ignores her and penetrates her anyway, however breifly.

Does that not sound like a serious assault to you ? I think theres always downplaying in these situations because its a husband involved , and it appears that husbands have rights.

ISNT · 26/08/2010 21:31

He asked her
She said no
He stuck his penis in her

?

That's what rape is, surely? Penetration without consent.

What you mean is it doesn't meet your personal definition of rape. It meets the legal definition though, so that's what it is.

vesuvia · 26/08/2010 21:31

Yes, I know this is a long post, but you can always scroll down if you want to skip it. Smile

I think it might help clarify some things that are being argued about on this thread.

To expand on what dittany wrote about the law on rape, I thought it would be helpful to actually quote a bit more of part 1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, because it not only defines rape but also defines consent.

section 1 Rape

(1)A person (A) commits an offence if?

(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

(3)Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.

section 74 Consent

For the purposes of this Part, a person consents if he agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice.

section 75 Evidential presumptions about consent

(1)If in proceedings for an offence to which this section applies it is proved?

(a)that the defendant did the relevant act,

(b)that any of the circumstances specified in subsection (2) existed, and

(c)that the defendant knew that those circumstances existed,

the complainant is to be taken not to have consented to the relevant act unless sufficient evidence is adduced to raise an issue as to whether he consented, and the defendant is to be taken not to have reasonably believed that the complainant consented unless sufficient evidence is adduced to raise an issue as to whether he reasonably believed it.

(2)The circumstances are that?

(a)any person was, at the time of the relevant act or immediately before it began, using violence against the complainant or causing the complainant to fear that immediate violence would be used against him;

(b)any person was, at the time of the relevant act or immediately before it began, causing the complainant to fear that violence was being used, or that immediate violence would be used, against another person;

(c)the complainant was, and the defendant was not, unlawfully detained at the time of the relevant act;

(d)the complainant was asleep or otherwise unconscious at the time of the relevant act;

(e)because of the complainant?s physical disability, the complainant would not have been able at the time of the relevant act to communicate to the defendant whether the complainant consented;

(f)any person had administered to or caused to be taken by the complainant, without the complainant?s consent, a substance which, having regard to when it was administered or taken, was capable of causing or enabling the complainant to be stupefied or overpowered at the time of the relevant act.

(3)In subsection (2)(a) and (b), the reference to the time immediately before the relevant act began is, in the case of an act which is one of a continuous series of sexual activities, a reference to the time immediately before the first sexual activity began.

section 76 Conclusive presumptions about consent

(1)If in proceedings for an offence to which this section applies it is proved that the defendant did the relevant act and that any of the circumstances specified in subsection (2) existed, it is to be conclusively presumed?

(a)that the complainant did not consent to the relevant act, and

(b)that the defendant did not believe that the complainant consented to the relevant act.

(2)The circumstances are that?

(a)the defendant intentionally deceived the complainant as to the nature or purpose of the relevant act;

(b)the defendant intentionally induced the complainant to consent to the relevant act by impersonating a person known personally to the complainant.

dignified · 26/08/2010 21:32

Porto, do you feel that there was an over reaction because it was her husband , as opposed to a mechanic or a freind ?

marantha · 26/08/2010 21:32

dignified Yes, interesting question, I think.
Why aren't they trying to shag their neighbours etc..?
Perhaps because they feel they've no right to do so, but perhaps they feel they've the right to shag their wives because they've been conditioned that marriage= sex on tap?

Portofino · 26/08/2010 21:33

She also said that he had done this on other occasions and she normally went along with it and enjoyed it. I DO agree that what happened was not right. I DON'T agree that this makes him a rapist.

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