Rape within marriage

[tabouleh]

Yes unashamedly a thread about a thread.

It is like entering the bloody twilight zone over there.

Jeez there are MNers basically caring more about OP's husbands right to sex rather than believing OP and helping her.

Totally understand if this gets deleted for being a thread about a thread - but if it gets more of the feminist viewpoints onto that thread then great.

Sassy did your partner object? Because if he didn't, then it's your and his prerogative and no-one can tell you otherwise.

I would hate to be woken up with sex and I would hope anyone I was in a relationship with knew that.

And very good point E&M - people keep banging on about us saying that you need consent and I don't think anyone has said that it needs to be 'do you fancy a shag?' 'yes' It can be much more subtle than that. But what is absolutely crystal clear is that if someone says no, not really, I'm tired or anything else that suggests they are not interested then that is rape.

"other posters are trying to impose a rigid standard" - that's true, if by "other posters" you mean the law.

can't you see why this is so worrying? People have to sleep - should we all be sleeping in separate rooms and locking the door because if we're asleep and our partners fancy a bit they can just assume that snoring=consent?

The reason it's the law, is so that if people actually expect to have sovereignty over their own bodies (!), and decide if and when they have sex, and someone has sex with them while they are unable to consent, that person can be punished. It's not that hard.

marantha
sorry-i wasnt having a go at you-
after posting-i realised that it might of seemed like i was having a go-i wasnt.
i was thinking about what you said and thinking about how society sees this want/need thing.
i think you inadvertivly [oh cant spell it]
brought up a good point.
want/need.

snoozathon No - if he had, I would have stopped. I still don't think it woudl have been rape though.

E&M - what I'm suggesting is not illegal

Having sex with your sleeping partner, just like having sex with your drunk-to-passed-out partner, or your in-a-coma partner, is rape or assault. The fact that you did it doesn't mean that it can't be illegal. What are you, infallible?

E&M I wish you wouldn't say horrible things like that. My DD died 4 months ago, and was in ITU - and it was NOTHING like sleeping.

Your analogy is utterly inaccurate and in horrible taste.

I'm very sorry about your daughter, and I hope you're getting any help you need to come to terms with what happened. :( Have you been on the bereavement threads on here? They seem really supportive.

Of course being in a coma isn't the same as being asleep, I never said it was. But in the eyes of the law they are the same in that someone in either of those states is legally unable to consent.

E&M fwiw, to me you seem unwilling to debate, or listen to other views, only in continually banging on about all rape being the same. Not constructive.

Presumably Susan's partner wasn't asleep for the whole duration anyway and it was meant to be a sexy way to wake him, not a means of her getting pleasure out of him.

Seriously, are you in the 'all sex is a form of rape' camp?!

Don't be ridiculous, snoozathon.

OK

sparky159 Hey, if did bring up a good point here, let me assure you that it was purely accidental and that I didn't intend to

I'm a regular on the bereaved mums thread - thanks.

Sorry - I am touchy - obviously (!!)

The point is - if DH was in a coma, dead drunk or for that matter, dead - I wouldn't want to have sex with him. It is very different to initiating sex with someone who you envisage will wake up if you shag them.

I can apprecaite some posters would never want this to happen in their relationship. That is fair enough. However, it is wrong to say it shoudl happen in no relationship, and if it does, that is rape. Not everyone feels the same - and initiating sex (including climbing on top) with your sleeping DH is not against the law.

E%M do you accept that people do things because their partners like it, even though they are not particularly enjoying themselves? Do you accept that when men want to have sex it's usually as much about giving as receiving pleasure, even if the woman then declines?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Hello I am the OP of THIS thread.

I don't know if I have the energy for this today. .

We have a new one for all the "classic" MN battles - you know: BF v FF/SAHM v WOHM and now.......................

People who support and believe those who have been raped V Rape "apologists"/those who think that women are to blame due to various circumstances they find themselves in.

OK let's get our Consciousness Raising hats on!

There are clearly people posting here who do not agree with the Feminst viewpoint.

We may be changing the minds of various lurkers - we may be starting to change the minds of some of the posters here. Let's hope so!

Some random responses to some of what had gone on today on this thread:

Larry - here is an observation for you. You did not like being disbelieved about going to Cambridge. You know you went there. Isn't it irrelevant what other posters think?

I understand that one of the worst things for a rape victim is the fact that people don't believe them....

Seriously - if men are not certain they have consent then yes the bloody well should ask - tell your son that. Especially since he is likely(*) to be viewing hardcore pornography which is not a true representation of consesual sex.

In fact I would go so far as to say that for the young boy of today EXPLICIT VERBAL CONSENT is going to be much more relevant in order to counteract what they have seen.

Get him to look at www.makelovenotporn.com

(*) based on statistics regarding the viewing habits of teenage boys.

marantha

"I mean, if a woman is doing the washing-up and her husband makes a pass at her, she firmly refuses yet he pushes her to the ground tears off her clothes and has sex with her against her will, that is rape-married or not."

I have to say that I find this post INSANELY OFFENSIVE - because you seem to be suggesting that the wife should "firmly refuse" - it seems like this is your "poster scenario" for what rape looks like in a marriage. You have people TELLING you on this thread that it is not always so.

Also that crap about women taking their clothes off and spreading their legs = CONSENT.

It is more "likely" that someone snogging and fondling is going to consent to sex than a granny you bump into at the bus stop and proposition BUT and I feel this is the problem area - that behaviour does not mean consent. Please ladies look into your hearts and your memories and maybe think about times when you were a teenager - imagine doing these things and then thinking - oh I don't want to have sex yet - so you say "no" or "i don't want to" but then the man continues and rapes you.

All this "advice" bullshit - we couldn't go anywhere as women or do anything if we followed it to its logical conclusion. Women in burquas still get raped you know.

Where a rape was preceded by some consensual intimacy, a woman will often find herself blamed and accused of being naïve, or of being a tease who led her attacker on. If she was out on a date, smiled at, flirted, danced with, kissed or engaged in some other level of intimacy with him, subsequent accounts will often portray her as being to some degree complicit what happened to her.

But a kiss is not a contract and the sexual autonomy to which we are all entitled means that women have the right to say no at any time ? and to receive justice if that no is not respected.

Quote from here.

Are you now coming round a bit? Having identified the "freezing" problem.

SassySusan - I don't know what the defition is of rape/sexual assult is WRT to a woman raping a man - however just look at your OP on this thread.

You basically posted the opposite sex scenario to what is being discussed and said "is it rape" and then got all horrifed when people said "yes".

All this, this is what we do in our marriage/sleep sex stuff. The OP is currently ILL and has been having hardly any sex - we are not talking about a scenario where they every day shag before getting up and one day she suddenly says - you raped me FFS.

I know this is just a jumbled strream of consciousness.

Thanks!

Of course not all rapes are the same, they are all different. But they are all rapes, and the reason I stick to the definition is because it has been hard fought by a lot of people, in order to protect people from violent partners and others who want to have power over them and ignore their ownership of their own bodies. Undermining the law by saying x wasn't really rape (not you, but some have) is really unhelpful in my view. People doubt themselves enough about whether somehow what happened was their fault etc, whether they shouldn't have slept naked or shouldn't have had a drink or shouldn't have kissed someone if they didn't want to sleep with them. The law needs to be clear, to protect people.

I would consider it to be rape if I awoke in the morning to someone having sex with me. Because of what the law (now) says, I can go to the police and - in theory at least - that person could be convicted for what he had done. If people are happy with being fucked while they sleep, and both people in the partnership know that, they are equally free to not go to the police. So the law protects people like me, and doesn't intervene with people who do things differently.

I'm not sure if we're in furious agreement...

prolesworth you are making a general principle though.. you seem to be saying you need to indicate verbal consent - but that is not the law and not my preference.

If I left my DH, and he let himself into my house and got into bed and had sex with me when I was asleep that would be rape. Because the surrounding circs indicate that I am not willing to have sex with him...
If a burglar came into my house and did the same that would be rape -
If DH drugged me - rape

However, if I am generally willing to have sex, and we are in a loving relationship, and we are in bed, and he becomes aroused, adn I get on top of him, I'm struggling to see this as a criminal offence...

marantha
yep-i thought so-thats why i tried to type the word that i cant spell

Sassy - I am also sorry for your loss :(

If your husband turned round one day and said 'can you get off please - I'm not a human dildo' would you feel that you could ever do that again? I suppose what I'm trying to ask is that we all have boundaries and things that are acceptable within our relationships but that those boundaries can sometimes change. Do you agree?

OP wrote:
There are clearly people posting here who do not agree with the Feminst viewpoint.

I have a PhD in Feminist theory - but it is a bit old now, and I must be out of touch. When did the singular feminist viewpoint emerge? What a bloody revolution - how amazing!