Rape within marriage

[tabouleh]

Yes unashamedly a thread about a thread.

It is like entering the bloody twilight zone over there.

Jeez there are MNers basically caring more about OP's husbands right to sex rather than believing OP and helping her.

Totally understand if this gets deleted for being a thread about a thread - but if it gets more of the feminist viewpoints onto that thread then great.

"E%M do you accept that people do things because their partners like it, even though they are not particularly enjoying themselves? Do you accept that when men want to have sex it's usually as much about giving as receiving pleasure, even if the woman then declines?"

Honestly snoozathon - who do you think I am, Anne Widdecombe? I have actually had sexual relationships before so you can lay off the patronising stuff thanks. None of what you're asking about is at all relevant to the conversation, is it?

Do you know what you are happy in your relationship Sassysusan let's not make this thread about you.

I just worry that this talk of sex being initiated whilst people are asleep may lead to the following:

1. men thinking that women are in a constant state of consent

2. women thinkning that they have to put up with a man demanding to have sex/actually having sex with them whenever HE NEEDS WANTS it.

That's what I am worried about.

tabouleh What on earth are you talking about, really, if you take offence at this I really don't know what planet you're on.
Sorry, but I don't.
I've said that I think rape CAN exist in marriage- yes, you may take issue with my EXACT wording (perhaps I should have just said 'refuse'?) but the point is still there.
I am therefore not a 'man can't rape his wife' supporter.

Really, you are splitting hairs. Why the you are doing so, I don't know.

E&M Thanks for that post, I understand that women need to feel empowered to call it 'rape' even if it's not a dark alleyway and a stranger.

I'm just conscious of the myriad situations which married or long-term couples find themselves in sexually and I find motivation really interesting and a key point in several situations mentioned on this thread. Trust and safety are key issues in any bedroom. While I understand the need to call a spade a spade, it's also necessary to understand why things happen imo, how communication breaks down. Perhaps most usually healthy marriages have the occasional or one-off situation when male frustration, female low libido, lack of communication, misunderstanding of what is sexually appealing, pressure from a sexually turned on partner, low self-esteem, or whatever - these things can all create unhealthy situations in the bedroom which might end up with someone feeling seriously hurt. Is it useful to shout 'rapist' at one's DH repeatedly? I'm not so sure.

On holiday this year I was pretty drunk, we went to bed and DH was obviously v keen, so I went along with it, then halfway through I started to feel really upset with it, no particular reason, but he picked up on it and immediately stopped. I said it was ok, he should finish quickly and that I was fine, he kept going for about 30 seconds and gave up. He was then pissed off. Unhealthy - yes. Abusive - no. I've also had a go at him in the past for losing his erection. Neither of us is perfect - sex is amazing by definition, so when it goes wrong, emotions run high, things can get nasty pretty quickly if you're not careful. I'm not excusing rape, just interested in the dynamics of long-term sexual relationships.

Taboleuh What a horrible thing to post.

My "news" wasn't unrelated. I was responding to another poster who raised the issue of people in a coma.

Your post is just horrible. You must be an extremely nasty person.

Eh? Cross-post! if you're going to be rude E&M I will not bother trying to post questions or discuss things on here :(

Tabouleh unnecessary and cruel. Sorry for your loss Susan. God why can't people just debate things without being nasty I have no idea.

And, yes, there are a lot of people out there who STILL believe a man CANNOT rape his wife.
NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES- in bed, while she's doing the chores whatever.

You know what, a person can't win round here- they say that a man CAN'T rape his wife and are (rightly) flamed for it, but even if they say (perhaps in a clumsy way, but the point is still there all the same) that rape can MOST definitely occur in marriage and agree with others the 'others' still give them a gobful of abuse.

Jeez. Really can't win.

marantha I am consciousness raising dontcha know .

Great, marantha, that's briliant that you think that rape CAN exist in marriage. What do you want a bloody medal. We don't need you to tell us this, thank God, we have the law.

What I worry about is that you are indicative of people who blame women and state that the contribute to their rape - due to circumstances/intimacy/alcohol.

I felt that by posting your little scenario (woman washing up, forcibly resists is thrown to the ground and raped) you were someone implying that this was MORE of a rape that Anchor situation.

Rape is rape is rape.

Each rape will have circumstances which are more or less physically traumatic and more or less emotionally traumatic but:

Rape is rape is rape.

I agree that you are not a "man can't rape his wife" supporter - to be honest we have the law on that I fear that you are a "woman leads her husband on puts her self in a scenario where he penetrated her without her consent but for some reason [insert reason]eg he couldn't possibly have know did not want sex/she was obviously consenting on account of being naked/legs spread - therefore it can't possibly be rape" supporter.

If you are not then my sincere apologies, I have misunderstood you.

TheButterflyEffect , yes I can see that rape can occur in less dramatic circumstances, however, my response was to the 'rape can't EVER occur in marriage' people.
All I said was that, yes, it can.

Look SS it's really hard because if you're having a debate, and one person introduces a tragic circumstance, as you did, it puts others in a situation where to continue with their POV makes them look insensitive.

But I wasn't wrong to mention situations where people are legally counted as unable to consent, and your personal situation doesn't make me wrong.

Tabouleh isn't being "horrible" or "nasty". She was pointing out that what happened in your family is not relevant to this thread.

Thank you snoozathon Small minded people always result to throwing insults when they can't engage in the substance (sigh)

And I really don't mean to upset you, so sorry if I have, I am just trying to explain :(

It would be nice to have a discussion about sexual issues in marriage and how common marital rape is, possible reasons men rape their wives, if things have improved, how consciousness can be raised, how to deal with sexual issues in a marital setting, etc.

Alternatively we could just keep shouting about how all rape is the same and insulting other posters and infantilising their viewpoints rather than debating intelligently and reasonably.

E&M that's not the point - the point is that being in a coma is not the same as being asleep.

It's an offensive analogy. It would be offensive whether my DD had died or not... but it does hit home to you how stupid it is if you sit myself someone in a coma for a while...

So it is not a valid point...

And it is in appalling taste to refer to my DD's death as my "news".

tabouleh who is the 'we' in your post. Is this the royal 'we' or something?

Look Sassy of course I am sorry for your loss but I do not think I have been horrible nasty or cruel.

If you have interpreted my posts that way then I am genuinely sorry.

When E&M said "Having sex with your sleeping partner, just like having sex with your drunk-to-passed-out partner, or your in-a-coma partner, is rape or assault." that was a perfectly appropriate thing to post on this thread.

Unfortunately men drug women and rape them.

You stated what E&M said was "in horrible taste". It is not. You are upset by what she posted due your personal circumstances.

didn't see the original thread, agree with whats been said. rape is rape - no grey areas. its a traumatic expereince that deserves caring from others and not sympathy with the rapist!

I find it vile that some people still live in the dark ages and think as you are married you can do what you like to someone, as if they are your property. Sadly I expect rape in marriages is more common than we think.

Snoozathon I thought your longer post above and last 2 liner was very sensible.

Couples in marriages have complex lives - this discussion has got out of hand though...

I am horrified about the number of posters who think anyone disagrees with them is anti-feminist - what happened to sensible discussion?