Rape within marriage

[tabouleh]

Yes unashamedly a thread about a thread.

It is like entering the bloody twilight zone over there.

Jeez there are MNers basically caring more about OP's husbands right to sex rather than believing OP and helping her.

Totally understand if this gets deleted for being a thread about a thread - but if it gets more of the feminist viewpoints onto that thread then great.

Thinking about it, there was a thread very similar to Anchor's a while ago. The OP had a similar experience and came on to MN to make sense of it. Pretty much every poster made excuses for the husband - I remember staring open-mouthed at the screen about the fact that I seemed to be the only person who thought it was rape.

I also remember at University, someone telling me about a bloke in her lectures who had "had sex with a girl while she was passed out at a party". It was very much, ooh, how naughty of him. The guy was a rapist, but nobody wanted to call it something that 'serious'.

I don't really have anything to add to this thread really as it seems so incredibly clear and obvious and so many of you have said it repeatedly already.

Sex without consent is rape.

I actually think those who have come on here to tell Anchor otherwise should fuck right off. I'm all for free speech and for people having a right to their opinions but surely in RL if someone told you that they had been raped you wouldn't respond with a whole load of tripe about how they are making a drama out of nothing.

FFS, show some compassion and keep your fucked up ideas to yourself!

For all those who have come on here and bravely talked about their experiences of rape, I'm so sorry that you have to then contend with the kind of vile and oppressive attitudes expressed by some of the posters on here.

The rape deniers on this thread, Dolly, Portofino and Marantha, DejaVu will probably be as unsupportive in real life, would probably display the same attitude towards their friends, family, even children, even their sons and daughters, perpetuating extremely unhealthy sexual relationships.

We will never fully understand why they have been so cruel, but nevertheless it is completely unacceptable, sexist and degrading, but has been challenged on this thread, they are the ones who have been named and shamed.

I really hope all the rape survivors and sexual abuse survivors can get over the distressing and upsetting comments and take all they can from the supportive comments.

I know feelings are running high, so I hope this post doesn't offend anyone -because I post it not to do so, but to add to the discussion on the boundaries around reasonable consent...

If I snuggle into my DH and he is sleepy and says "no, not now". So I stop, snuggle in a little deeper - then 10 minutes later notice he has an erection. I know he is asleep. I stroke him, and he seems to respond in his sleep - and then I climb on top of him (putting his penis inside me) and start to have sex with him. Lets imagine I have done this many times before, and he has always woken up and enjoyed having sex. On this ocassion he wakes up and say "No, leave me alone". I get off him immediately.

Have I raped him?

Sassy - you knew your post was going to be offensive, you have read that other posters have been offended and hurt.

I can not believe you have posted this.

You have offended me.

Dittany and Edam,

Is it really unreasonable to expect a woman to say no or clearly indicate her disapproval. When I was in my 20s I had a girlfriend who liked to just lie there. It was quite dull really (although she was very attractive). The fact that we went out for a year, to me, at least, suggests it was not rape.

Dittany et al, you always use the argument that rape prosecution rates are low and then compare them with conviction rates in other violent crimes. I believe when like is compared with like, they are very similar. You do have to assume someone is innocent until proved guilty, it is a fundamental tenet of law. Unfortunately, for one on one unwitnessed crimes, it makes them hard to prove. That is unfortunate but not a reason to change the burden of proof.

Some of the posters are getting very close to the opposite of "a vagina implies consent". It is closer to "a used penis implies guilt".

The legal definition works for me. Someone posted it earlier. I believe it is the normal reasonableness test in that a man should reasonably believe that the woman (or other man) has consented. The key word is reasonable.

and another for Larry..

I can not believe you speak about a women who just liked to lay there...

and another for Sassy.

But then this is part of your plan is it not?

Coming on and trying to derail the thread, trying to justify your sexual experiences where you think about consent after the fact.

I meant speak about a woman...

Start another thread guys! FFS!

Sassy/Larry did you enjoy having sex with someone who was not responding or engaging? I know I'd probably stop and wonder what was wrong with my partner or what I was doing wrong myself?

Sleepypjs, she was my GF ffs!

We had meals out, went to the cinema, chatted about work etc. She was 23 and shy about sex. Some girls are; it happens. However, she was always keen to stay over at least once a week, rather than going home. The fact that she went to my bedroom, took off her clothes and started kissing me, in my neanderthal way, seemed to imply consent.
I as quite shy at 26 too, could not believe my luck that such an attractive girl would sleep with me. That happens too.

Are you seriously, seriously telling me that each time we saw one another, I should have asked "would you like to have sex tonight", maybe as we were holding hands over a glass of wine?

I have always stated that rape is rape and that if someone says no or CLEARLY indicates otherwise that they do not want sex, then they should be harshly dealt with.

Am I trying to derail the thread? If so, I can leave you all to agree that there are no grey areas in human sexual relations and that most young guys are potential rapists.

And actually I take my comment back - we ofcourse do not know if the woman liked to lay there, Larry does not know this either.

But Sassy and Larry sure do demonstrate what a massive problem RAPE is in this world.

OK, I am about to scream and throw my laptop out of the window. But I will try and be calm and logical:

Sassy - if your husband has said no, then you have had sex with him without his consent, Ergo it is rape. An erection is not a sign of consent, any more than a woman's body lubricating is a sign of consent. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but there you go.

larry - the OP in the original thread said no. She didn't just lie there making no approving noises, she said no. Don't minimise her pain by talking about nonsense such as a non-vocal girlfriend. BTW, if your girlfriend ever tried to fight you off, say no, or in any way indicate to you that she didn't want to have sex with you, then it is rape to continue to penetrate her. If on the other hand you just meant that she didn't squeal like a pornstar to indicate her approval, then that is nothing to do with what this thread is about.

FWIW, even after 10 years of marriage, my husband still, very gently, very tenderly, and very explicitly asks for my consent through a simple "OK?", waiting for my "OK" in response before putting his penis inside me. Its simple respect for women to do so, and to stop immediately if the answer is no. Hardly frickin' difficult, is it?

You are trying to derail this thread.

A thread for the support of a poster who has been raped by her husband. A second thread after the first was derailed and then deleted.

We discussed the legal definition of rape and some other people shared there experiences.

Then some arseholes came on and started talking about having a penis inside you after having said no and falling asleep was just 'disrespectful' or a 'misunderstanding' then asked about other scenarios where a man could be confused. Then you and sassy came on with nothing positive to add 'but did I rape my partner?'

I am really starting to want this topic to be hidden in active convos. I find it really fucking offensive (and exhausting) to have asenine poster after asenine poster come on here ridiculing Anchor. Because have no doubt - that is what you're doing. You're undermining, belittling and attacking. Shame on you all.

TBE - I hadn't even considered the issue of selective mutism and consent - that's why its even more important than ever to do the "check for consent" thing. I mean, seriously, what is wrong with people in this day and age???? I feel like we've slipped back 100 years, really feel like sitting on the floor and screaming and sobbing in sheer fucking frustration.

I cannot believe women really like men to "check for consent" every time within a relationship. It ignores the fact that people actually know their partner. Selective mutism is the strangest one yet! You can get up, push someone off, shake your head. And if you are a "selective" mute, surely it is a good idea to tell someone ahead of sleeping with them.

Should women also ask their partners for consent before straddling them? Or is an erection deemed consent?

dolly - I get infuriated by people posting about being "facebook raped" or feeling like they have been raped because they have had a possesion used. The word rape is a very important and deeply serious one. it should not be bandied about with so lile regard.
to do so offends me.

however i do not feel offended by someone posting that they think they have been raped because their usually loving hsband penetrated them without consent. do you know why? because THEY WERE RAPED!

there is no sliding scale of how severe a rape needs to be in order for it to be considered rape. by pushing a penis into a woman that has not consented you have raped them. it is that simple.

Whilst i also agree that if this was a singular incident then i would suggest that a very frank conversation about just what he has done and how it has made her feel should allow them to continue their marriage as was. But that does not mean that what he has done has not caused immense pain and distress to Anchor.

You just don't seem to understand that what you are doing is trying to make Anchor feel as though she is somehow wrong to feel like this. that her husband was within his rights to use her as a blow up doll.
this is such a very very damaging point of view.

Sassy - yes. technically you have sexually assualted your husband. his body may well have responded to your touch. that does not mean that he wanted to have sex with you.
It has been discussed previously that rape victims often struggle to understand that their vagina had responded to a rapist. that they had become "wet". they are often in turmoil as they beleive that they somehow must have enjoyed what was happening. Of course this is absolutely untrue. it is simply the body responding despite the owners will.

if i cut you you will bleed, whether you want to or not.

if someone has told you no and yet you continue to try and have sex with then you are commiting an act of sexual assualt.

does that make it clearer for you?

larry - whether your girlfriend lay still and thought of corrie or whether she was swinging from the lampshade is null and void. if she was willing for you to hump away at her then no you have not raped her. you may however like to spend some time improving your own sexual technique than coming on here and offending women with your attitude towards women and rape.

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