Traps For Women & Girls

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I've been thinking about how a lot of the time it is impossible for a woman to win when it comes to choices.

For example, it seems that everyone is very keen for mothers to stay at home, especially those with small children (should say that this is second hand, I have no DC yet). Public opinion, childcare costs, media etc all make clear that that is the right choice.

And yet when they do they become expected to do all the housework (even at weekends), vulnerable to charges of being lazy, "ladies who lunch", overprotective etc.

And if they work part-time they are often seen as uncommitted at work, and still have all the downsides of being SAHM.

Or if you wear make-up and heels some people will judge you as a bimbo, but if you wear a t-shirt and jeans and trainers, then you are probably depressed or a lesbian (nothing wrong with being gay, just a stupid judgement to make on appearance alone) or not making "enough" effort.

Was wondering if anyone else had examples of being caught in these kind of traps?

yes they will

sm, what I am saying is that parental instilling of confidence is one way in which girls gain the confidence to challenge inequalities they face. This does not equate to blaming the parents, this was in response to BTP's point that she instills this in her DD- I am saying that we cannot rely on parental instilling of confidence as parents who do this are in the minority.

Rather than give girls confidence to challenge inequality -which they are lacking IME- we should be working towards oh, I don't know... Equality?

Aitch I could tell you a similar workplace story of bullying, but the bullying is being carried out by women. Can't say too much as it's ongoing. I think some institutions are just nasty, toxic places. Which doesn't mean that sexism may not play a role (or provide a narrative for the bullying) but I think sometimes it's the structure of the institution that can allow that sort of hideous bullying to take place. Having some similar problems to the one you describe with the union -who have taken the case on but seem to be lacking some gumption to follow the whole thing through - but again it's all female.

Now why these institutions become so toxic is something that interests me (especially having seen the bullying up close). I think it's something to do with size and hierarchy.

I am not saying it's a poor strategy, BTP; just a strategy which cannot be reliably replicated and so one which it would be unwise to solely rely on.

I was asking that question of sm, BTP.

You seem to be misunderstanding my answer as well. My bringing up my DDs to abhor inequality won't make a jot of difference to the inequalities that are in our society, just as my abhoring inequality won't make a jot of difference either. It only makes a difference (apart from at the personal level) if you try to do something about it.

My DDs abhoring inequality won't help them with the hand-on-arse problem, for example. I want society to change so that men don't go around doing it in the first place.

so you want societal change,but not instigated by women or your daughters.since their is no point.but men have to change society.again emphasising female passivity

well attitudinal belief,self confidence goes a long way to challenging inequality

women just hope for societal change but not take ownership,cause their is no point

I never said that I wouldn't bring my daughters up to abhor inequality.

I just don't see how my doing that, or abhoring inequality myself, will do anything at all by itself. Us just going around thinking "gosh that's awful" won't actually do anything will it. Nothing changes unless people act. Whether they act as individuals, or as groups, whether they act immediately, or later, whether they act often or just sometimes... The point is that there has to be action. Just thinking something is wrong isn't going to help anyone.

so what action do you propose.you seem to be saying whats the point

oh yes i do think it's an institution thing as well, damet, the structure seemed hell-bent against a single person being able to say 'well this is stupid'. however, it is a male industry, her managers and co-workers are males (some sympathetic, of course) and it is a sex discrim act case because of the secretaries...

sm your post bears no resemblance to mine.

I have not said I want societal change which is not instigated by women.

I have not once mentioned men or hinted at what I think their role should be in societal change.

You are arguing with an imaginary spectre.

bears no resemblance cause i wasnt addresing you

except having read your post again damet, i don't think that she was bullied, nor does she. i think it was ineptitude and not valuing her becasue she was jsut a girl. no bullying, she really liked most of them.

Hopefully the sex discrim act will pull some punches. Having watched someone (actually in this case a few people) on the receiving end of workplace bullying I am staggered by how the institution can seem to support the bullies. Even when there is lots of support for those being bullied from people not in the direct management line iyswim.

SDMT, I am going offtopic, but I think that one of the reasons why toxic workplaces appear is because of weak, unfair and incompetent management. People who would behave well in other situations start to behave badly towards each other when they are mismanaged and put under stress.

?

Well there's gettig involved in politics
Getting into positions of power in companies and effecting change
Starting comapnies and running them fairly
Petitions
Marches
Talking to people you meet and expressing your viewpoint, trying to get them to see the inequality
Talking on here which is galvanising people to become active
Giving to charities that help women eg my fave fistula foundation

I mean how long a list do you want.

Your approach seems to be rather individualistic. And I still don't understand what your proposal is. My giving confidence to my daughters will give them confidence. But it won't stop them having a good chance of being paid less than men, or raped. To reduce the chances of those things happening, society needs to be changed.

Oh absolutely millyr- that is definitely the case here. Weak management has allowed a situation to get completely out of control.

you think your daughters have good chance of being raped?jesus wept woman.do you really see dysfunction and violence as likely and "good chance"

what has shaped your views

Arf, sm- thank fuck for that. Damn my giant ego

But enough about me- What do you think about me?

Oh, bad x post, sorry.

and this is your reasonable salutationn is it

i think belief "good chance of being paid less than men, or raped" is so contentious it is worth querying

what might have shaped her views, sm? something that might require a less snidey and nasty tone, do you think? even if not so, why are you being so vile?

no,hang about am i supposed to know every nuance of a strangers pov.