Traps For Women & Girls

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I've been thinking about how a lot of the time it is impossible for a woman to win when it comes to choices.

For example, it seems that everyone is very keen for mothers to stay at home, especially those with small children (should say that this is second hand, I have no DC yet). Public opinion, childcare costs, media etc all make clear that that is the right choice.

And yet when they do they become expected to do all the housework (even at weekends), vulnerable to charges of being lazy, "ladies who lunch", overprotective etc.

And if they work part-time they are often seen as uncommitted at work, and still have all the downsides of being SAHM.

Or if you wear make-up and heels some people will judge you as a bimbo, but if you wear a t-shirt and jeans and trainers, then you are probably depressed or a lesbian (nothing wrong with being gay, just a stupid judgement to make on appearance alone) or not making "enough" effort.

Was wondering if anyone else had examples of being caught in these kind of traps?

xposts

Feminism is about being the opposite of a victim! Recognising inequalities and uniting together to fight them, is not giving in. Burying your head in the sand however, is! How will you change anything with that attitude?

My response was really to goat's post which did say people had to just get on with it, that was how I read it anyway.

I also think that elephant's OP highlights many of the difficulties faced by women - in the decision that they have to make surrounding children - and the pressures that they receive from all directions.

sm I know that you wanted to go back to work full time after your child/ren (have seen your posts on the subject) and that was the right decision for you and you know your own mind and are obviously strong enough to bat away any raised eyebrows. However a lot of women do feel terribly torn, they do feel that they don;t know what the right thing is, they feel terrible guilt etc. And it's a very female problem, so it bears talking about on here.

My solution would be good quality subsidised childcare, an extension of leave after having a baby so it can be shared between both parents, and flexible working for everyone. Not sure what to do for the people who want to stay at home not thought about it but anyway. That is one of the points raised in the OP, it does bear discussion, and there are solutions (which have the happy effect of improving things for everyone, not just women), and we can all crystallise our thoughts and lobby MPs, join a march, do whatever we think will help to achieve the end that we (personally) think sounds like a good idea.

I don't really understand why others think this is a bad thing?

That was just my example of how a conversation about one of the points raised in the OP could be useful and constructive BTW. Rather than an attempt to actually start a different conversation IYSWIM.

The decision is one thing, expecting not to be judged for it is another.
Your solution is a good one ISNT, that's the kind of thing that should be fought for. Anyone can make a catsbum face at me for my choices but as long as they are not the ones drafting actual policy who cares.

i hate the 'you don't have to be a victim' because it implies that if i am a victim, it's cos i wanted to be one, or chose to be, or if i had done something differently, i could have prevented it

so if my boss gropes me - i must have wanted it or somehow caused it

if i am first in line for redundancy after coming back from a mat leave - i brought it on myself

my dh hits me - i obv pushed him to it

so essentially, the onus for controlling the behaviour and actions of others is on me

i am really struggling to see the feminist message in this

maybe some of you right on can do 'i aint no victim' feminists can help here lol

That's not what I am saying chibi.
I am saying fight the people with power over you, if they don't have power make your decision to suit yourself and forget their opinions.
That's the difference between your boss putting you up for redundancy after childbirth and some hack filling column inches pontificating about working mothers.

What if the boss read that article on his way to work and it influenced his decision to make you redundant, wukter?

chibi!
she's like a sniper
Doesn't pop up much but when she does it's a bullseye

Agree with tethers that the opinions of others and the press etc are a reflection of society and also serve to reinforce views. So they are a barometer of where we are at IYSWIM. And important, if loads of people are presented with a certain POV all the time then they are unlikely to come round to other ways of thinking easily.

Examples recently that showed it well were the press coverage of the rape/attempted rape trial with the 8yo girl, which showed how far we have to go with attitudes to rape etc, and the opinion piece about that young man from the band (boyzone?) who died suddenly, which showed how far we have come in not accepting homophobic views any more.

I think that noticing and discussing and considering negative messages is v important really.

Even the press inches given to decisions that mothers make - and not a word about fathers decisions - serves to confirm in minds that everything relating to children must be borne by women - which is unhelpful.

Reminds me of a Gertrude Stein quote dp sent me...

But the problem is that when I go around and speak on campuses, I still don't get young men standing up and saying, 'How can I combine career and family?'

sakura wrote "chibi!
she's like a sniper
Doesn't pop up much but when she does it's a bullseye"

LOL!

I agree that we need to identify the situations listed on here. That in itself is not just hot air, moaning, hand-ringing. Think of all those lurkers out there who are reading about these situations and saying, yes that happened to me, a relative or a friend. The butterfly effect can send ripples of recognition far and wide. Forewarned is forearmed. If it helps one woman out there, it has been worth it. That in itself is action.

Blackduck wrote - "Reminds me of a Gertrude Stein quote dp sent me...

'But the problem is that when I go around and speak on campuses, I still don't get young men standing up and saying, 'How can I combine career and family?'"

That quote is usually attributed to Gloria Steinem.

tethersend "What if the boss read that article on his way to work and it influenced his decision to make you redundant?"

• that's what tightened up legislation which is implemented is for.

What can you do about people's attitudes, except on an individual basis challenge and prove wrong where you can? And eventually attitudes catch up with the law.

You have to change attitudes first though in order to change the law. If the "new improved" attitudes aren't out there, the law will never be proposed or passed.

It takes more than a single, individual approach with this stuff. You need to be agitating for change via multiple channels.

aitch you said you thrilled to hear anti-feminist why - whats the allure of that label.you seem to forget your own pots but dispute when i reminded of what you say

".. anti-feminist? i think it's the best thing about these pages, that challenge. i'm not a radfem but for me it's a thrill to hear the words spoken tbh."

all the name calling and who dat troll is lame and doesn't actually contribute anything rigorous

the discussion has been intersting,initself

oh FOR FUCKS SAKE, lol, that is your most bare-faced mis-quote yet sm.

you can't just take the end of ONE sentence and conflate it with the beginning of the next, good lord. and with that you are absolutely banged to rights as a stirrer, sm, lolol.

hang about then,what words was it you found thrilling to hear

there was ongoing anti-feminist discussion

BeerTricksPotter Thu 19-Aug-10 09:17:38
"Aitch,I'm pleased about that, because I really hate being labelled anti-feminist because I approach a topic from a different perspective"

Rely: Aitch Thu 19-Aug-10 09:48:13
"yes but don't you like to be made to think about whether what you believe is functionally anti-feminist? i think it's the best thing about these pages, that challenge. i'm not a radfem but for me it's a thrill to hear the words spoken tbh"

so was it, the words anti-feminist spoken?what so enthralled you

are saying thrill to hear anti-feminist words spoken?

given it as been slung around im curious to know

you can read, sm. i presume you understand verb, object, subject etc? then it's quite clear.

oh and for context, this is the post prior, this is what pleased beertricks, that i'd said our views on feminism were much the same despite disagreement on thread content.

Aitch Thu 19-Aug-10 09:15:33

och no, you were just the people uppermost in my mind as characterising the thread as a load of defeatist talk when in my interpretation it's the absolute opposite. i think tbh that's the nub of this disagreement, i don't think personally that our actual views are that different.