Traps For Women & Girls

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I've been thinking about how a lot of the time it is impossible for a woman to win when it comes to choices.

For example, it seems that everyone is very keen for mothers to stay at home, especially those with small children (should say that this is second hand, I have no DC yet). Public opinion, childcare costs, media etc all make clear that that is the right choice.

And yet when they do they become expected to do all the housework (even at weekends), vulnerable to charges of being lazy, "ladies who lunch", overprotective etc.

And if they work part-time they are often seen as uncommitted at work, and still have all the downsides of being SAHM.

Or if you wear make-up and heels some people will judge you as a bimbo, but if you wear a t-shirt and jeans and trainers, then you are probably depressed or a lesbian (nothing wrong with being gay, just a stupid judgement to make on appearance alone) or not making "enough" effort.

Was wondering if anyone else had examples of being caught in these kind of traps?

dittany thats too much subterfuge and trolls.but yes do report me

do you alwys speak and presume for others.have others intimated im troll or anti-feminist.or are you presuming they think this?

is that the best you can muster.how very lame

scottishmummy - I agree with practically everything on this thread. I am sick to the backteeth with 'victim feminism'. Wah wah wah, we have it so bad, all the fucking time.

Try being a woman in Afghanistan, or Congo. The LRA is now in Darfur - anyone know about that? How about supporting the women in Bangladesh who are striking about their wages - VERY low wages - they are paid for making your clothes?

'Ever thought of a career in counselling women who have been victims of sexual and domestic violence earwicga?

"Wah wah wah you're such a victim"

Helpful'

As a survivor of both, and a person who talks about them both on-line as well as IRL, I have helped plenty of people. The same with depression as well. Once you talk about the untalkable others feel the ability to do the same.

Only unhelpful if you can't understand what I am saying.

Great OP Elephant.

Great contributions Dittany et al.

ScottishMummy - although you are often very insightful and funny, you do sound somewhat deranged.

I wish I could say more, but I'm exhausted from reading the thread.

Furthermore Prolesworth - to conflate what I said with damning victims of sexual and domestic violence is low.

Well yes, I have every sympathy with you if your life is like that of an Afghan woman or a woman captured by the LRA. Get a grip.

I am intrigued as to when acknowledging a problem became synonymous with rolling over and dying from it. Some posters here seem to think that talking about problems that women have experienced is a waste of time, either because if you ignore problems then they go away (this never works for me somehow), or because we're not as oppressed as somebody else, or because we should all toughen up and not let people bully us, sack us or sexually harass us. Give me the instruction leaflet on how to prevent those things again?

Well I think that talking about things with other women is a was of being stronger, it's silence that allows things to happen unchecked. Totally agree with the poster who said why should we only teach our daughters to fight inequality, rather than, y'know, trying to get rid of it. One way of fighting it IMO is to share stories, learn from what other people have done (and no, not just learn that we're all doomed before you leap in sm), and see the truth of what women are up against. It's pathetic IMO to say stop fussing about it, "rise above it" and it will go away - that is total bollocks. With equal pay for example if women had just said "yeah I'm paid half the amount for the same job as a man does, but I'm going to hold my head up high, rise above it and not think any less of myself" - would that have achieved anything? Instead women talked to each other, found out this was a pattern in workplaces everywhere, and when they could see the root of the problem (discrimination) they were able to argue against it. And win.

If we never bother to talk about or pin down what we're up against, we can't fight it properly, it's just an effervescent mass of inequality that you can't begin to struggle with. I would see sm's point if this thread was the sum total of feminist conversations happening, but it's not. It's part of a process.

*is a way of being stronger

Earwicga - did you just tell someone who has experienced rape/domestic violence to get a grip because she's lucky she's not in Afghanistan? That is beyond the pale.

Elephants - Prolesworth didn't say she had experienced rape and domestic violence - I did.

And no, it's not an opression olympics. Nothing wrong with discussing problems, but with a total absence of discussing the actual power we do have then it one relentless stream of 'victim feminism'.

In fact, that really is my cue to bow out of the echo chamber of nastiness and bullying that is dominant in this section of Mumsnet.

It is a terrible shame, as a mother and a feminist this really should be a great place to be. But it's not because it is full of people misinterpreting others. Elephants, your comment at 01:00:14 makes me feel sick to my stomach.

In my children's class there are children that still say, after 2 years, that my children can't do/say certain things because they tell my children that they are new. I'm always reminded of them when I read many commenters in this section.

A forum for feminists? Pah! A forum for bullies more like.

Well why don't you start a thread about that then? I am not the only one with a working keyboard. What's stopping you? Rather than telling other people that they're starting the wrong conversation, why not start the "right" one?

I don't know Proles any better than you do, I was drawing from:

"Ever thought of a career in counselling women who have been victims of sexual and domestic violence earwicga?...I'm sure I would have found that very helpful, yes"

It sounded as if she was saying that she had had counselling for such things, and that your approach would have been completely unhelpful. And then you told her to get a grip.

Well I apologise if I have upset you, but I quite clearly read you telling Proles to get a grip, unless she was living in Afghanistan. And you call me a bully?