Traps For Women & Girls

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I've been thinking about how a lot of the time it is impossible for a woman to win when it comes to choices.

For example, it seems that everyone is very keen for mothers to stay at home, especially those with small children (should say that this is second hand, I have no DC yet). Public opinion, childcare costs, media etc all make clear that that is the right choice.

And yet when they do they become expected to do all the housework (even at weekends), vulnerable to charges of being lazy, "ladies who lunch", overprotective etc.

And if they work part-time they are often seen as uncommitted at work, and still have all the downsides of being SAHM.

Or if you wear make-up and heels some people will judge you as a bimbo, but if you wear a t-shirt and jeans and trainers, then you are probably depressed or a lesbian (nothing wrong with being gay, just a stupid judgement to make on appearance alone) or not making "enough" effort.

Was wondering if anyone else had examples of being caught in these kind of traps?

i JUST do not see the 'wahwah' here. there are inequalities, there are double standards, all that the OP did was ask for more examples so that we could have a bit of a blether about them. i just do not interpret that as rolling over and bleating that nothing can be done.

what is it that sm, beertricks, earwigca et al are reading that i am not?

och no, you were just the people uppermost in my mind as characterising the thread as a load of defeatist talk when in my interpretation it's the absolute opposite. i think tbh that's the nub of this disagreement, i don't think personally that our actual views are that different.

yes but don't you like to be made to think about whether what you believe is functionally anti-feminist? i think it's the best thing about these pages, that challenge. i'm not a radfem but for me it's a thrill to hear the words spoken tbh.

a thrill to marginalise divergent opinion as antifemminist?as if there is only one way to be femminist.it is most illiberal to deride other opinions as "anti".is it so intellectually or ideologically challenging that it needs to be framed as "anti"

and this shouting troll is a nonsense

the real shame is the inability of some of you to not resort to name calling and shouting troll as a defense strategy.is it really so challenging to haer a divergent opinion that it neeeds to be demonised and labellee as anti-femminist

a bitty hysterical imo

yet again, sm, that's not what i said. that's not what the thread said, and it's not what most posters said. but please, do carry on. god knows what you're getting out of it, but carry on.

I've just read the whole thread. HAd a LOL at the Freddy V Jason post.

So scottishmummy, you are saying that you think this thread actually harms the women's movement.

I have found, and other people have also mentioned, that since this feminist section opened up on MN they've begun to examine their lives a bit more and make small changes, which will then have a butterfly effect in society, I should imagine.

So by talking and chatting, (and I don't think this thread is a heavy topic compared to other MN topics,) you can identify issues and put a name to them, and try to work from there.

I think naming problems goes a long way to solving them. Betty Friedan's polemic, the one that began the second wave feminist movement in the US was based on "the problem with no name"

btw i do think there is a difference between 'a troll' and 'a well-known mner who is trolling ie getting her kicks for the evening by being as obtuse and twisting as possible in order to wind up other mners'. and i think that is what dittany accused you of, sm.

You talk about what problems there are, then you try to eradicate them. It's that simple really. One does not exclude the other, they are complementary.

"Rise above it" is in many instances good advice, BTP. But you have to admit that it's not the only thing that needs to be done to make the world better for women. I really liked this post:

"It'd have to be an attack on the status quo on several levels.
Individual as I've described.
Advertising and media - lobby against oppressive representation.
Education - PHSE lessons shouldn't be a woolly afterthought.
Legal - let's get the rights we want enshrined in law.

It sounds a bit amorphous, I'll admit and a pretty slow-moving change.
My point was that it all starts with me refusing to feel limited by anyone else's expectations. Getting together with people who think like me, who want to see change starting in their lifetimes."

Exactly. Some problems you can help yourself with by "getting over" caring about people's opinion of you. Others you can't, and obviously you have to work together to change things - I like your practical list.

Maybe I should have said in the OP "let's identify these potential traps to better avoid them, and those we cannot avoid let us fight to eradicate".

To go back to the OP's original question of situations where you can feel doomed if you do, doomed if you don't. I think for many single women it's the politics of dating:

Why must men always make the first move vs woman who makes the first move looks desperate/like a slut.

Ditto, paying for things:
Why should men always pay? And yet if women pay, eyebrows do get raised. [DH and I definitely notice this].

I don't know what the solution is, but identifying these examples makes it easier to challenge them. And for me, thinking about what the OP said made me think of examples where I myself unwittingly fall into the trap of thinking them. Hopefully, now I won't.

Unwanted pregnancies are looked upon as exclusively the work of women:

• if the couple were not using contraception then "she shouldn't have been so stupid"

• if they were using contraception and it fails then she "got herself pregnant" (a particular pet hate of mine, this phrase)

Man's role in procreation is apparently as innocent bystanders.

Hate "got herself pregnant" as a phrase.
BUT I do think it's stupid not to take responsibilty yourself for contraception. The burden WILL fall heaviest on you, even if society was equal it would biologically. In a casual relationship you may not know the other person well enough to trust them, I definitely wouldn't leave it up to someone I didn't trust wholeheartedly to do the right thing by me.

I'm a stay-at-home mother of two who has no intention of going back to work, despite having two degrees. I opted to have caesarean births. I breastfed for as long as I wanted to, then stopped when I got sick of leaking all the time and not being able to drink alcohol.

I never wear make-up unless going to a wedding, then I wear the full nine yards.

99% of the time I wear scruffy, baggy clothes and tatty trainers.

Do I feel judged? Nope. Why should I give a shit what others may or may not think of me. You don't HAVE to feel judged. You don't HAVE to feel trapped. You don't HAVE to be a victim.

Bloody hell Lenin wish I knew that this time last year.
I am only half joking, btw.

I find this "you don't have to be a victim" stuff difficult TBH. Not everyone has that strength, personality, fortitude, maturity etc to be that way.

If eg a 13yo girl is getting unwanated sexual attention and doesn't know how to deal with it then I don't think telling her to deal with it herself helps.

If eg my 3yo DD starts to think that she can't play with "boys toys" no matter how I try to persuade her otherwise, then I think it is harsh to say that is either her fault or mine. Short of moving to the outer hebrides and not allowing her to have any friends it is impossible to avoid them picking up these ideas.

If a woman is in a low paid job and finds out that the men are being paid more then is she really expected to "rise up" and take on the employer by herself?

And I don't even know where to start with saying how inappropriate that argument is for women in really dire situations elsewhere in the world.

This is why groups form to challenge society, why unions exist, why equality is enshrined in law in the UK. Because people can't do it all by themselves, all the time.

And if we never talk about things which we think are bad, then we never come together to take action.

There is a lot of very individualistic "I'm alright jack" sentiment on this thread which I think is where a lot of the argument is coming from, I wonder whether the real differences in opinion are arising from different political beliefs TBH.

isnt you are erroneously paraphrasing.no one is saying im alright jack. there is a recognition we all have different subjective experiences and there isnt a uniform female experience

i dont recognise any of the described traps,never having described them.but i recognise that may be someone else experience.and there need to be a counter recognition that not all women experience traps or trapped

Well, I suppose there is a scale ISNT.
Your list shows how society needs to change.
Elephant's initial list was more about criticism against individuals for SAHM/WOHM, or what type of clothes you wear. Those are things which can be handled in the 'rise above it' way.

The message that I am getting on this thread from some quarters is that feminism as a group activity should not be tackling issues, issues should be tackled by the person who is directly experiencing them, and if they can't well then they need to get a grip because it's a tough old life.

That is a political view isn't it, not one relating specifically to feminism. It's a different balance of individual vs state than I personally subscribe to. It's no wonder that there is an argument, but I think it is a political argument, which is trying to be shoehorned onto this thread, which is also why people are getting their wires crossed as it's not quite fitting.