So it would appear this topic is the Millwall of Mumsnet

[GothAnneGeddes]

Nobody likes us and we don't care.

I have to admit I lurk more then I post here, but to me, it's great being able to have everyday things discussed through a feminist lens, especially as most feminist websites are so US-centric.

It's just such a shame that so many women don't think that feminism is relevant to them. I just don't understand it.

What is the party line on the feminist section?

"But the only people who appear to 'percieve' this are the people on this thread, which makes me think that it is a line drumed up to make a point, rather one of actual fact."

what does that mean? I have read it a few times and I still don't understand it.

i liked the way you phrased it, really (no tongue in cheekiness)

it was exactly the way I would have said it, but about the feminism boards

i have seen robust debate there, but no real silencing or party line-ness; rather i have seen real disagreement on issues

i don't want to cite posters but there is one who is pretty much diametrically opposed to me on a certain issue, i have always felt able to discuss it with her

i guess the difference is that we are both starting from the basis of 'how does issue X affect women, how are women's rights implicated in issue X'

i expect that there will be real disagreement on where that leads us, but we are starting from the same place - women and their benefit are paramount to issue X

i guess i am confused by others who come on this board to advocate placing others' concerns before those of women - not as in it is a contest who is most needy

i suppose i see it as alike crashing a thread in the tack room about recommended products for getting rid of ticks with 'cats get ticks too you know, what about them hmm? in fact they can even catch them from horses - won't someone please think of the cats'

for whatever reason, i expect the tack room posters to operate from a basis that horses and all things horsey are the foundations of their discussions

But it isn't like that chibi. That would be two different things. This is the same thing, the same news story for example, viewed from two different perspectives. I think it is possible, in a situation where different interests potentially conflict, to be challenged to see things from a different starting point without reducing it to "but what about the menz?"

Oh FGS I was just trying to illustrate a point that teh regulars in these sections and the topics themselves have more in common than would seem on the evidence of these threads.

It was an attempt at reconciliation, that and sharing some personal information about myself, in order to try and come to a more mutual point of understanding.

You seem to still be implying that I am a liar, and I do not appreciate that at all.

I have said it about SN, and one other person has said they find it a bit scary. That is hardly "quite a few people" whipping up a "line".

I find it comfortable and friendly in the feminist section, I am always surprised when people say that it is intimidating or cliquey. However I accept that that is how they feel. I am interested and not terribly surprised to see that anyone saying that is how they feel about another section is met with flat denial and accusations of lying. How people perceive themselves is not always how others see them, especially where groups are close knit (shared experiences, passioante, etc etc). My attempt to point out similarities which I truly believe exist, and were the cause of the ruck, are dismissed.

In fact anything I say to you lot is dismiised, that is the total of my experinece with the "SN crew". On that note, i think I'll leave this thread, it's not going to get anywhere.

TFM, the reality is that complaining about being asked for it not to be all about men never leads to this actually happening. From the numbers of posts it would seem that plenty of people are still over on the care plan thread talking about disabled thread.

Eventually the thread will burn out, and they will leave again, like the pro-prostitution people did, and the trans people did, and the men who felt oppressed at work and every other group who come on and complain that we don't want to focus on their issues.

And in a few weeks, someone else will come on, and insist we abide by the way they want to talk about things. Maybe it will be animal rights activists, or the wives of men from Brazil, or men who work in betting shops or people who care a lot about elderly men.

I really don't know, but it becomes more and more absurd to think we can keep changing our way of talking and our perspective every time some new groups decides to temporarily come here and be irritated and tell us the new direction we should be moving in.

SM, what about the menz is someone's, maybe ISNT's (but I could be wrong) expression for derailing.

When people want to derail a social justice topic, they talk about the oppression of a different group. When talking to feminists, right wing people try to shift the conversation on to a comparison with an excluded group of men. With ethnic minorities, right wing people will shift the conversation on to a comparison with working class white people. By refusing to ever engage with a group on the issue they are trying to talk about, and constantly compare it to other groups, no group's issues end up bein dealt with.

But the people on that thread are MNetters though. They haven't come here merely to argue with the feminists (or rather with the regulars of this topic). They are MNetters with something to say on the subject of the thread. And are they insisting that you view things their way, or are they saying that they see it another way? You can continue to view things from your own place, but isn't it sometimes interesting at least to hear what it looks like from somewhere else.

I think the perceived feminists party line has been well documented, tbh (isn't that what this thread has, in part been about?)

I would, however, be interested to know what the perceived SN party line is. I am totally mystified as to what it oculd be (unless it is along the lines of being prepared to give up any hint of a RL to fight, fight, fight again for your dc)

MillyR - i don't think there are any "groups" coming here and telling you how to think, or talk.

there are people coming in with valid viewpoints, who are shouted down (NO! we don't talk about that. this thread is about X ONLY!). and there are people who come here wanting to discuss, and then threads might go off at a slight tangent - usually to be recovered again. this is not exclusive to the feminist section - it happens with just about any thread over about 50 posts, anywhere on MN. it's called discussion.

anyone who reads, and then posts "oh, interesting. but have you thought about it like this?" is met with cries of "derailment!"

your 17:56 post reads as though you would prefer the feminist section to be a closed, private section, where you will meet no views other than the ones you like.

Silverfrog, what did you think then, of the previous debates on the feminist section, where other groups came in? Do you think they were very similar in nature to the current debate you are involved in on here?

I've come onto these threads to say something and found my perspective shifting as I read, and as I argue. To say "no, go away and post in another topic, this is for the feminist perspective only" would irritate me. Fortunately, I've engaged with posters who like to explain, in some detail , why they come from where they do.

TFM, on which thread has debate been closed down?

sorry, Millyr - I meant here, on this thread. sorry if that wasn't clear.

yep, you're right leningrad.

all the people who have popped up saying they want to join in, but don't want to be chased away if they have a different viewpoint will just melt away again.

and you can all carry on in comfort, chortling to yoursleves that you managed to avoid another derailment

But silverfrog, why do you keep on insisting on something that is simply not the case? The care plan thread is still going, and nobody has mentioned the impact on women for at least a page (I am not going to look at in for any more than one page). Nobody is stopping you from having the conversation you want to have on that thread. Why are you still complaining that you are being made to toe a party line? It has become your party.

milly, do you really think that everyone who has come onto this thread and said they feel they cannot express their opinions in the feminist section (and I mean honestly held, sincerely believed opinions - not trolling rubbish) has said this because of that one thread?

Oh well, I've rarely seen discussion shut down...

Fair enough - I can see your point I think. I suspect I'm arguing this POV because I read the care plan thread rather than participated in it, and found it more interesting because of the different perspectives. It made me re-visit my initial "WTF?" response to the story.

I have to say that I love this topic, and read it a LOT.

I don't contribute much (at all, really) because I don't have a university education and feel that I'd probably make a bit of an arse of myself by not having the right terminology to hand.

It's been an (re)education! Thanks

I'd say to keep up the good work.