why do women collude in their own oppression?

[ColdComfortFarm]

Following the notorious Sebastian Horley thread, I feel utter despair at the way women defend their oppressors. Black people would never attend the funeral of someone who advocated cutting up black people with chainsaws, enslaving and raping them, so why do women? I'm not a fool, I know that society protects misogynists in a way it does not protect racists, but even so, why do women support women-haters in a way that Jews or black people (for example) do not? And how can we change this?

Yes, but surely you'd agree that, considering the fact that women are disenfranchised on a global scale and that only men have the power to create the wars that women are, as yet, unable to stop, it empowers women when they identify with other women?

In fact, surely by not identifying with other women, for example, taking the POV of: "I do not identify with a mother in the third world with a dying baby at her breast, even though I am a woman and a mother" is harmful to women?
I think that this non-identification, this inability to identify with women, is what leads women to collude with the oppressor rather than align themselves with other women accross all countries, races and classes.

I think feminists are mocked so readily by anyone, especially women, that you have to be mighty strong to keep at it. The notion of beauty, albeit cosmetic, is pretty hard to avoid and whilst you fight it you get sidelined.

It's true Posie, the ultimate scapegoat. The "ugly" feminist, what a perfectly coined myth to attempt to keep women in their place.

Yes Sakura, but we are like that because we can't get a man - makes us ugly, bitter and twisted and we let ourselves go :)

Oh so some of us escape do we sprogger....

Systems Thinking? Would you mean that independent elements can never constitute an entire system?

If so, then these sort of comments simply polarise and do blame individual males - as I said earlier, they don't help the argument, and also certainly do not use system thinking.

"All women are subject to male oppression. All women and girls face the risk of male violence against women for example."

They do have a worse time of it Lenin, which is why a middle-class woman, who is generally more powerful, is able to help all women, but only if she identifies with women as a group. So feminists should encourage women's identification with each other.

This nonsensical argument that middle class women are only out for themselves in an "I'm allright Jack" brand of feminism is a) wrong- historically and currently, and b) divisive

It has happened in the past (the NOW example, or Maggie Thatcher), but it's being blown way out of proportion, and in fact is being jumped upon by anti-feminists to sort of prove that feminism can't help women... or something...

I am often alarmed by women who are actively anti feminist, I wonder what their motivations are. Is it simply because they don't identify with what they believe a feminist is or is it that they truly believe that feminism has had a negative impact on society? Actually a third idea is that they do it to feel empowered and to impress men....

I am also think that the promotion of the empowered female as an object of beauty who happens to have made a little cash is completely damaging, hence moving away from the feminist idea too. The five minute celebrity, the new role model is anti feminist and unless you are prepared to take a personal tangent it's hard to avoid identifying with some vacuous celeb than a woman making her mark for something credible.

On another note why can't women be funny and biting, like a man, without being accused of being a bitch? Men can compete and be called 'strong' and 'powerful' whereas women are accused of being aggressive and bitchy.

"Actually a third idea is that they do it to feel empowered and to impress men...."

Yes, Prolesworth calls it 'wanting to be part of the cool gang', which I think is a perfect analogy

X posts! Didn't know you were here Proles

Because it makes women powerful if they identify with all other women

I think people are more likely to identify with smaller groups. In general I believe a woman of a minority is more likely to take greater interest in things regarding her race than her sex.

Feminism is really seen as a middle class white womans pursuit (in general in this country), whether it is or not almost does not factor as that is what it is seen as and it puts off many women. Also i do feel that the more extreme elements of feminism get the most attention and that also puts many women off. Women have sons,brothers,fathers,friends etc and family bonds are stronger for most people than that of bonds to a stranger who shares the same sex.

Some people feel more powerful when they are not part of a collective - as if the collective is bleeding them of their importance, distinction, uniqueness, individuality, 'freedom.'

IME the Queen Bee who colludes in the oppression of other women seems to be seeking male approval while claiming the opposite and denigrating other women for being silly, inferior, trivial, etc. Those women who say, 'I've always preferred male friends' etc.

but Sammyuni, this thread is not about what puts women off feminism i.e wrong perceptions about what "feminism" is

This thread is about why women collude in their oppression. So if a woman is not a self-identified feminist for the reasons you gave, why should that stop her from being on the girl's team? Or why should that make her laugh at misogynistic jokes etc. Why should she collude in her oppression just because she happens not to identify with some feminist 'brand'?

Good point there slouching about not wanting to be part of a collective. THat could be part of it i.e I'm not a feminist, I'm me

BUt I think most self-defined feminists (and I am one) have simply read some feminist book somewhere along the line and thought "bloody hell, she's right !" And then Pandora's box opens and can't be closed again.

Perhaps some women don't come accross the right books. Or perhaps their not ready to see what's written there. The most powerful and important feminist works are for all women.

Feminism is really seen as a middle class white womans pursuit (in general in this country), whether it is or not almost does not factor as that is what it is seen as and it puts off many women. Also i do feel that the more extreme elements of feminism get the most attention and that also puts many women off. Women have sons,brothers,fathers,friends etc and family bonds are stronger for most people than that of bonds to a stranger who shares the same sex.

Good post!...Sammyuni

Perhaps it is the desire to be part of a different more powerful collective, the 'now' collective. The collective that is lighthearted enough to laugh at misogynist jokes, not out on a limb whilst everyone else laughs along. Middle class women can afford to be feminists, working class women or women in poverty would see feminism as a very low priority. She would be more concerned about food on the table than whether or not Jimmy Carr is an arsehole.