straight pornography is male gay in sensibility

[Heathcliffscathy]

This came to me in a wave of inspiration...straight porn is a hypermasculinised view of sex. Hypermasculinity has it's place in the pantheon of what it means to be a gay male (not all, not every, by any means).

straight porn is totally phallocentric: penetrative to the exclusion of all else and the builds up to an inevitable anal sex finale, or blowjob come shot/facial.

the vagina plays second (third?) fiddle to anus and mouth and size is all. breast stimulation gets barely a look in.

bear with this as I know it's treading a dodgy generalisation line, but it does strike me that if you were to argue that male gay sexuality (as a generalisation, i know that there is a vast continuum out there that we are all on male and female) is the zenith of hypermasculanised male sexuality, then mainstream straight porn is pretty gay?

Do you think it's possible that the homoerotic is so repressed in 'straight' man that it has to find it's outlet in porn, which leaves women utterly hard done by porn wise?

i know there is a strong argument to suggest that straight porn is just about degrading women and undoubtedly that's in there a lot of the time but could there be another basis to it?

SGB, as I've said, I'm interested in ethical porn as a concept, although as beachcomber pointed out, are you sure you're not talking about erotica?

And I still don'T understand why you are using a minority example to justify so much abuse.

YOu seem to be justifying the worst excesses of male sexuality, at whatever cost, and if anyone disagrees with you they're anti-male-sexuality. It's a rubbish argument.

Sorry link didn't work properly - just went to a menu page.

Try again - please read it is powerful stuff.

SGB I understand what you are saying about fantasy here;

"And for a man to fantasize that the gorgeous woman he lusts after is equally enthusiastic about the prospect of having sex with him isn't necessarily abusive or harmful to that woman - lots of men fantasize about having sex with Cheryl Cole/an attractive woman they saw at a bus stop/the happily married woman in the office and don't do anything about it because they accept that these women are not available to them."

However the problem is that pornography is not fantasy - it is real. And that is the problem.

Beachcomber:We have already all agreed that the abuse of some performers in porn is wrong. But acting isnt wrong. Watching people acting isn't wrong. Watching people acting (incluing having sex on camera, if they are consenting - and do remember that to a ot of peple having sex with an attractive, clean, non-abusive other person who one is not psychologically intimate with, is really no big deal) and fantasizing that you are part of the action isn't wrong.

Sakura: THis is what I mean by a circular argument. I say that abuse of performers in porn is wrong, but the depiction of consenting sex by consenting performers is not wrong and back comes someone going 'But you;re justifying abuse'. Unless you consider (as some feminists do) that all heterosexual intercourse is abuse under the patriarchy, I don't understand why you keep claiming that I think abuse is OK.

And what about Lenin's earlier point about webcams? Anyone with a touch of the exhibitionist in them has lots of outlets to express that thesedays.

But paying for a product means the industry has to cater for a market. I do not believe that any female porn actress is "enjoying it", because 1) it's acting, so what are they enjoying exactly? and 2) they're catering to a market so personal tastes and preferences go out the window 3) if they enjoy it that much, like people enjoy..eating ice cream, say, ...why do they need to be paid?
The porn market has nothing to do with female sexual pleasure, or anything to do with women at all, really.

Leningrad: but my experience of working in the industry and knowing others who do, is that plenty of people are not abused, and the way to help those abused is not to condemn or ban the whole industry - this will in fact put those abused at greater risk.
People are abused in the fashion and catering industries as well, but no one is suggesting we should all go naked and stop eating as to do otherwise is to 'condone' abuse.

But there are knock on effects on society SGB. Porn does not exist in a vacum. There is a correlation between porn consumption an rape in societies. Russia has a high incidence of both, for example.
And as Milly said, your personal experience does not negate the reams of research on this subject.

Also, there is a big difference between a woman "not being abused" and a woman "expressing her authentic sexual self". A big difference.

SolidGoldBrass wrote - "the way to help those abused is not to condemn or ban the whole industry - this will in fact put those abused at greater risk"

The hard-core porn we have been discussing seems to me to be a mix of abuse, violence, rape and prostitution by another name. If these are stopped, what are the greater risks that these women will be exposed to?

Is that your assumption or based on evidence?

SGB your acting argument might hold some water if porn was simulated sex. But it is not. Those women really are being brutally penetrated in their anuses. Those women really are being choked whilst being 'face fucked'. Those women are really being penetrated by more than one man at a time. Those women are really being called sluts and bitches and whores. Those women are often really dressed up to look under-age. Those women are really contracting herpes, chlamydia and gonorrhoea. 90% of those women do really have histories of sexual abuse.

The acting element is only that they are pretending not to hate what is really happening to them.

You seem convinced that most porn is quite nice really and that the women involved are quite happy to be there. The testimonies of the women in porn quite clearly show this to be untrue - so do the rates of drug/painkiller addiction, alcohol abuse, depression, suicide, PTSD, self-harm, unwanted pregnancy, abortion and sexually transmitted disease.

Most women get into porn under the age of 21, most women in porn have been sexually abused, most women in porn have damaged reproductive organs and anal passages. Most women in porn take painkillers and illegal drugs in order to be able to manage the pain of being penetrated for hours on end by oversized penises and other objects.

Why do you choose to concentrate on the tiny minority of so called 'ethical porn' whilst ignoring that the majority of porn is violent, misogynistic, degrading, painful, and dangerous?

Don't know about you but I have watched some porn where I have wondered how the woman is able to do what she is doing - I mean in terms of physical fit. When I was younger I wondered if there were women who have very large vaginas, mouths or anuses. Now I know that they were in exactly the sort of pain I would be in if I was being penetrated like them - they just dull the pain with drugs, think about the money, dissociate and wait for it to be over. Some say they 'like' the money shot because it means that it is over and they can go now.

ITA dittany - I don't understand why women aren't marching in the streets about how porn is everywhere nowadays (and getting more and more violent).

I can only think that there are a lot of women who don't really know what we are dealing with here because they don't watch it. A lot of women are shying away from the reality of the hate, sadism and enjoyment of degradation in porn because they are afraid to believe that that is women's place in our fucked up society.

I never understand for example how in a conversation about porn or prostitution people are able to gloss over the numbers of women who have histories of sexual abuse. People just don't want to hear it.

Regular consumers of hardcore porn, those who really enjoy it, simply don't want to hear about the vile side of the sex industry.
I was banned from the Lovehoney forums for posting a link pertaining to the abuse in porn.
Not before I was shouted down by those telling me that plenty of women liked violent porn though.
I countered that by saying that plenty of people also like to abuse children but that doesn't make it any the less wrong.
So much for free speech eh?

Loads of people watch loads of different types of porn. My husband likes facesitting for instance. I am a more the threesome type. There is so much out there and is something for everyone. The main porn sites now have loads that are amateur as well. Which both my husband and I like the best as the women and men are more natural (men are also better looking for me ;)

I know people that work as cam girls, have done porn, work on the sex lines and strippers. All normal, lovely people. It all depends on the type you do.

Well isn't that just lovely hunky dory?

(From I Blame the Patriarchy - Spinster Aunt asks people to cite the site and post this when linking to her stuff. Saying as how I respect her enormously I'm doing as she asks.)