straight pornography is male gay in sensibility

[Heathcliffscathy]

This came to me in a wave of inspiration...straight porn is a hypermasculinised view of sex. Hypermasculinity has it's place in the pantheon of what it means to be a gay male (not all, not every, by any means).

straight porn is totally phallocentric: penetrative to the exclusion of all else and the builds up to an inevitable anal sex finale, or blowjob come shot/facial.

the vagina plays second (third?) fiddle to anus and mouth and size is all. breast stimulation gets barely a look in.

bear with this as I know it's treading a dodgy generalisation line, but it does strike me that if you were to argue that male gay sexuality (as a generalisation, i know that there is a vast continuum out there that we are all on male and female) is the zenith of hypermasculanised male sexuality, then mainstream straight porn is pretty gay?

Do you think it's possible that the homoerotic is so repressed in 'straight' man that it has to find it's outlet in porn, which leaves women utterly hard done by porn wise?

i know there is a strong argument to suggest that straight porn is just about degrading women and undoubtedly that's in there a lot of the time but could there be another basis to it?

I don't consider DH to have had a sheltered life, but when I was going on about how we are going to cover the issue of porn with DS (12), DH didn't think there was any reason to think DS would choose to watch porn or have much exposure to it.

So that makes me think that choosing to watch porn is not part of the lives of every man; I think that is just a myth often put about by the partners of men who view pornography.

I am still going to have a conversation with DS about porn at some point, but I have been out with numerous boys as a teenager and lived in shared houses where most of the other people in the houses were men. They were political people and were opposed to porn.

SGB, I asked you a couple of questions upthread that you didn't answer.

How do you think feminists condemming porn contributes to the notion that women aren't interested in sex?
I gave you the example of the mindblowing experiences I'd had as a (V) young teenager and I have to tell you, adults know shit about sex compared to young teenagers. IN fact everything society has tried to "teach" me about sex has actually detracted from the innate knowledge my body had about sex as a girl.
And the boys I (and my friends) messed around with hadn't been exposed to that much porn either because they were so young and there was no internet then.

As far as I can see, porn makes men shit in bed. Or if it doesn't, it doesn't help men please women because they 'unlearn' everything they knew about girls at 12 and begin to see women as these other creatures.

SO if men watching porn doesn't help women's sex life (and I can't see how it possibly could) then how do you expect feminists to give it the nod?

rephrase: the boys my friends and I messed around with

Sakura: Because a lot of the feminist anti-porn argument seems to concentrate on utter distaste for men and male sexual desire, which is always portrayed as something horrible that women need to resist and be protected from.
ALso, the opponents of porn have generally seen very little of it, and that usually extreme examples of unpleasant stuff so it gets progressively more and more tedious to argue with them.

What an eye-opening thread. I guess I'm a bit late to the discussion so I hope you won't mind me jumping in. (I'm female BTW despite my name, I've been mistaken for a man on here before now!)

I'm in my twenties and I would guess that my generation is one of the first to have had access to this hardcore internet pornography at a young age - in fact I'm shocked in myself to read the description near the beginning of the thread that "hardcore" pornography means porn which is sexually explicit - shocked because, TBH, that's what I thought porn was, I didn't even realise there was any other kind, I always thought that hardcore related to the more "extreme" stuff like BDSM. It is so utterly normal among practically everyone I know that I never really considered page 3 etc to be "real" porn. I've never liked porn myself and have always felt uncomfortable with it but never really knew why until now - despite feeling uncomfortable, how could I have not noticed all the excellent points made on this thread so far?

I remember a conversation I had with an ex-boyfriend when we were both about 18 - he was telling me about a website called "la petite mort" (which is a French metaphor for orgasm), it doesn't seem to be around any more if indeed it existed at all, but apparently the whole website was pictures of women's faces as they experienced orgasm. He said "There is nothing more beautiful than a woman when she is in pain". (I don't know whether they were his words or from the website.) At the time I thought this was all artistic and insightful and deep - but it did make me wonder about the barriers between pain and pleasure and cruelty and (sex being an expression of) love. FWIW he wasn't coercive in bed and finished with me shortly afterwards because he said I was all over the place (which I was) and probably not a good idea to be in a relationship. Very soon afterwards I met XP (DS' dad) who was emotionally abusive, obsessed with porn and very coercive.

I find it really hard to imagine a world/generation where most men don't use porn, because in my experience with male friends, boyfriends, friends' boyfriends etc, almost every man I know of my age uses porn regularly and had seen internet porn for the first time during their teens (usually around 13-14) And TBH I find that utterly depressing, and have been aware of this from a young age but never really made the connection that it was porn before. I do know that some of them seek out less mainstream stuff because they find the mainstream porn boring or distasteful, but I can't think of one single man my age who I know does not use porn regularly or semi-regularly.

I'm actually quite upset now at the realisation that the likelihood is I will ever have a truly respectful sexual relationship with anybody.

But SGB, as you can tell from my posts, this feminist doesn't
"concentrate on utter distaste for men and male sexual desire, which is always portrayed as something horrible that women need to resist and be protected from."

In fact you are the first person I've read on MN who's come out with the idea that women must be protected somehow from sex. That sounds like something a man would say TBH.I'm not a right-wing Christian male who thinks girls should be virgins until they marry

I think women are sexual and lusty by nature so I'm honestly confused as to why you're using that argument.

I've just argued upthread that I originally thought soft porn and other female friendly porn would be okay, until I realised what would be required for that to come about. At least one woman will have to have sex with someone she's not intimate with.

I've had boyfriends who were into porn, and I've watched porn with them. I've stayed in pigalle in France, lived for 3 months in Amsterdam. I saw lots of men on men sex shows in Thailand. BUt in my experience men who love porn aren't that great in bed. ANd women's sexual pleasure is an important topic to feminists.

Bertie, you may; nOt all men are into porn. But it is interesting you say that your abusive ex was obsessed with porn. Definitely a correlation there.

Sakura: but having sex with someone you are 'not intimate with' is no big deal to some people (and not the same as having sex with someone you hate or fear). The women who appear in ethical porn are the ones definitely doing it out of their own free will, to make a point (though the money doesn't hurt of course). This is where the antiporn argument always comes unstuck, that it is seen as unacceptable to have sex on camera, for money, even when the woman is doing so in order to make what she (and the other peope involved in the film) intend to be something beautiful, arousing, challenging, political, etc.
Dittanhy I have never seen you ever express a view of male sexuality which isn't negative. ANy kind of sexual expression (whether that's porn, BDSM, anal sex or swinging) is always, in your opinion, something that men force women to do and that women hate, despite plenty of women saying that they like group sex or anal sex or spanking or bondage and indeed have introduced their male partners to it with the men on the recieving end.

But what constitutes free will? On the trans thread I made an argument about the various environmnental factors that would have led me to have plastic surgery. It would have been 'free will'. Or would it?

Are you saying these women would be volunteers? If they love it so much why would they need to be paid? Some of our work in life is pleasurable, we don't all work for the cash, but is sex an area that should be commodified? What does that teach our children? I believe adults should look towards youth culture for cues on how to have a good sex life, not expect youth to listen to what adults can 'teach' them. COntraception must be taught, of course, and fairly early on, but anything else you 'show' or 'teach' is just stifling.
A good analogy: reading the book then watching the film. the film can never compete with what your imagination can produce, and I think the same goes for sex.

SGB, I have heard before the argument that anti-porn campaigners refer to the more extreme stuff, and yet every academic paper on pornography has a long explanation of its methodology and evidence that it is referring to the most commonly viewed and purchased pornography.

So I'm not sure why you does not believe this. Do you believe people looking at the sex industry are less subject to peer review than other people published in the social sciences? Do you think that their academic qualifications are somehow less plausible? Do you think that your personal experience of what constitutes pornography is somehow more accurate than empirical studies of what constitutes the most popular pornography?

As for this claim that women need to be protected from men's sexual desire, I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I think it would help if you provided some examples of what you mean.

I think the mention of BDSM, anal sex and swinging pretty much make the point. These are so obviously just stereotypes of porn culture, and male sexuality and indeed female sexuality, is so much wider and more varied than these porn cliches.

Swinging isn't a porn thing though is it, it's a lifestyle, or a hobby, sort of thing, surely. A real life thing.

Anyway, hello Bertie There are actually loads of decent men around - the trick is finding them. I have seen some of your other threads and I think that as people get older they (ideally) learn the lessons of their past - so you know that men who watch a lot of porn are arseholes - and you know what sort of behaviour a coercive man shows - so all you need to do is avoid these sorts of men like the plague in future! I didn't meet my DH until I was nearly 30 and had loads of boyfriends before that - there are a lot of twats out there - but learning to spot the twats is important - as then you can spot a good one much more easily IYSWIM. Also if all teh blokes you know watch a lot of porn - and are twats - then try to find your way to different men - they're not all the same, and it's not a hopeless task.

Having said all that, teh most important thing is to learn to be happy by yourself. I lived alone for quite a few years in my 20s and I loved it. If you are happy in yourself, and happy with your life, it's much harder for some nobber to come along and suck you in.

Dittany: people have sex for lots of reasons other than desire - to please a partner, to prove a point, to gain advancement of some kind, out of sympathy for another's loneliness, out of curiosity, out of boredom... and sometimes for money without being coerced into it. This isn't a bad thing.
MillyR: a lot of the people who publish 'studies' of porn are not what you might call independent experts.
In fact, a lot of them are fairly nuts.

And I have encountered more than one anti-porn campaigner whose alleged 'academic qualifications' have been a bit, er, exaggerated.

And this woman puts on sexually explicit shows, is she a dehumanized degraded victim in your opinions?

YOu're still avoiding the question. The people on this thread have asked you why you think by condemning porn creates a myth that women don't enjoy sex. It's the first time I've heard the argument that women don't enjoy sex. So could you explain what you mean, please?

I assert the opposite: that the porn industry and its rape fantasies is what contributes to the notion that women don't enjoy sex and have to be coerced into it. Men want to see women being coerced into sex; that is what the industry is interested in. Have you fallen for this myth that women must be coerced into sex too

And why are you scrabbling around to find people on t'internet who have a different POV to the ones we're putting accross here?

SGB, I think your preoccupation with BDSM, swinging and anal porn tells me that your imagination is severely limited. You're coming across as though you think that's the 'ultimate' in sex, as though nothing could be better. YOu sound like you think the people on this thread haven't given anal, swinging and BDSM a go, and enjoyed it.

BY repeatedly giving the same tired, normative mundane cliches about what sex is, you don't prove your knowledge, you just show that your notions of sex have been severely constrained by society, perhaps by porn.

The point isn't that some women enjoy it, although I argue that if they enjoyed it that much they'd be doing it for free; tHe point is that some women don't, in fact some are raped, bruised and battered. And until that problem is sorted out I think we need to clamp down on the entire industry.
Let's get some perspective here.

What if they women who enjoy acting in porn it change their mind at the last minute, or halfway through, for example, and think 'Nah, fuck it, I can't be bothered today'. The camera crew, the selected partner(s) are all there at the ready. I argue that there'd be more than a little pressure to go through with it. Are you saying the women select their partners? If so, could you give evidence of this, because as far as I understand it they are casted. Not every woman finds the same man sexually appealing.

And in all of this, aren't you missing that special ingredient that really causes fireworks for women: spontaneity,

And as far as I've read, Milly is an academic, so I think she probably knows what she's talking about regarding studies.

Sakura: many people enjoy painting, writing, and playing music, indeed passionately love doing these things to the extent that they make their living out of doing them. Only a very few people think this is in any way 'wrong', that professional performers of things that other people do as a hobby or for personal pleasure, should be paid for what they do. So I don't see why it's so wrong to have sex for money (when one is not being coerced to do so and hates every minute of it).
As to BDSM, anal, etc, these are things that some people enjoy and others don't. It's not wrong to enjoy them - or to refuse them - each to their own.

Basically, I don't agree with you that the way to prevent the abuse of some people within the porn industry is to shut the industry down, I think unionisation of performers, legislation to protect their health and safety, an end to the stigmatization of the industry and encouragement of those who wnat ot make 'ethical' material is a better solution.

WRT to who is and is not an academic (I am not singling out or slating MillyR who AFIAK has made no particular claims for herself) - sthat could cover anyone from a tenured professer of social sciences to someone in the first week of an OU course - what is true is that all the social sciences are imprecise disciplines and what is 'proven' one week is disproved the next. ANti porn campaigners have been selectively quoting discredited studies for years without really undesrtanding them.

Oh, and 'spontaneity' as the key ingredient for women's sexual pleasure: Not necessarily. Plenty of people enjoy scheduling sex (it's something heteromonogamous couples are often encouraged to do to 'put the spark back' and many say it works) - the anticipation becomes part of the pleasure.

I am certainly not claiming to have any academic expertise in pornography. Nor am I claiming to be more able to assess academic claims for or against any causal links between pornography and male violence in wider society.

My point was simply that academic researchers have put forward very clear explanations as to how they have devised methodologies that select the most commonly used pornography. This is a very basic academic skill; devising a sampling strategy is easy to do and easy for other people to understand and assess the validity of.

SGB, you seem to be claiming that your personal perspective on what constitutes popular pornography is more accurate than the sampling strategies employed in studies. Your links pointing out that someone, somewhere is a bit crazy doesn't really address this point. I do think it is essential in the feminist discussion of pornography that we know what it is that we are discussing.

I think there are a lot of issues to do with pornography where we are all going to fall back on personal experiences and perceptions, because the impact pornification of popular culture haven't been that thoroughly studied. That isn't to say there aren't good studies, but a lot more work needs to be done. This is partly because pornification is something that is happening to the young generation right now, and we haven't found out all of the personal, psychological consequences yet. I think the fact that we can discuss this in a partially speculative way means that we don't all have to be polarised in our opinions or absolutely certain of the validity of every point we put forward.

But in terms of what mainstream pornography actually is, we do know the answer to that.