Racism veiled as liberation

[earwicga]

IMO, this is a brilliant article today by Madeline Bunting - an excerpt:

"The veil debate is making it entirely legitimate to pillory, mock and ridicule a tiny number of women on the basis of what they wear. French politicians described the full veil as a "walking coffin"; on comment threads online there is contempt and sneers for the full veil and those who wear it ? "hiding under a blanket", "going round with a paper bag over your head". In France it is estimated there are only 2,000 women who cover their faces with the burqa or the niqab out of a Muslim population of five million. The response is out of all proportion.

Let's be clear: the niqab and burqa are extreme interpretations of the Islamic requirement for modest dress; few Islamic scholars advocate their use, and many ? including Tariq Ramadan ? have urged women not to use them. They are as alien to many Muslim cultures as they are to the west. And yes, there are instances of patriarchy where some women might be encouraged or even forced to wear a full veil by their husbands or fathers. But generalisations don't fit. Increasingly, young women are choosing to wear the full veil, seeing it as a powerful statement of identity.

Invoking the full weight of the state to police dress codes in public is an extraordinary extension of state powers over an aspect of citizen behaviour which is largely regarded as your own business. Provided you are wearing some clothing, western public space is a free-for-all, and across every capital in Europe that is strikingly self-evident"
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jul/14/forced-into-freedom-france

One example of a young French woman's reaction to this can be found here: bit.ly/aBVa4x

What do MumsNetters think? Seems to me that if we condemn those who dictate as to women's clothing in Sudan for example (see Lubna Hussein) then we must equally condemn those who dictate as to women's clothing in Europe.

I will watch it....

But you have to admit being an extreme religious 'anything' is more frightening, finding righteous words in religious texts makes youths, ready for rebellion, far more easy to manipulate. And you're right large gangs of youths are using gangs like tribes and belonging to a 'family'.

Never heard of the EDL before, what buildings have they blown up? The propaganda they deliver is that they are fearful of radical Islam in the West, and I agree. They also make pains to welcome trans, gay and lesbian groups.

What does Islam say about homosexuals? Qu'ran 4:16.

"'Never met a fundamental Atheist that wished harm upon any group'"

Ummm..Hitler? Stalin?

Not entirely knowledgeable about it but from things I've read Hitler wasn't an atheist.

But none of those atrocities weren't acted out in the name of religion. So I don't think you can point to religion as the cause of all ills.
I'm an agnostic BTW

Ah, yes, I get it.

I think Man is the cause of all the world's ills, religion is a way to encourage and excuse their evil actions. Didn't they fly planes into the Twin towers for the promise of 70 virgins in the afterlife? I was just about to make another blanket statement, and have halted, as I'm sure there are Christian sects that would commit such evil acts for the same promise.

And Riven , I am sure that the Qu'ran and Islam did a lot of good and rescued people from such desperate situations and gave women property rights, etc. But it really does need rewriting now, such a shame an omniscient being can't see the future....

I am an atheist and whilst I find religion and it's expected submission of it's followers I am not anti religious people. In fact, unlike a religious person, I see the person first, I see the human being without being a clouded by their beliefs.

all clouded.....

I was a guest at a Christian family's home and they tried to convince me about the delights of being a Christian and how 'John' had found God as an adult and had lightened his life....blah blah blah. They were lovely but I did wonder if I would have them to my home and try to convince them that there is NO GOD.

pretty dumb...don't understand your post SF?

I studied philosophy of religion and my most wonderful essay(the only one i put any work into) was Can God know the future? Can the future be known and if it can does man have free will?

("to fill in what appears to be a gap in your knowledge math the internal rationale is that christians distorted the message by claiming that jesus was god, essentially idolatry and the central message of the initial prophets was monotheism in a polytheistic world that worshipped idols." I am a bit puzzled as this was apparently directed to me -- where did I mention any of the above?)

Also "the difference would be that things have been done in the name of religion by supposed religious people. non religious people have obviously also committed crimes, caused wars etc however they haven't done in in the name of atheism."
'Our programme necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism'. V.I. Lenin was quite understated on this subject in this quote, but his policies were nevertheless effective. The promotion of atheism wasn't some added afterthought or a contingency forced upon the Bolsheviks in the course of e Russian Civil War. It was an essential part of the creation of the new communist order Lenin contemplated. Persecution of the church, and public destruction of churches, humiliation of priests, etc., played a part in the state terror that was used to establish the communist regime in Russia, but the replacement of religion with atheism was also a fundamental aspect of Lenin's vision.

There are rude and over-zealous people everywhere, religious and otherwise.

I don't think I have posited Christianity as the 'default position' in any post here. As a Catholic I mention Catholicism to illustrate my perspective or compare historical development. I don't know from experience what any other Christian view might be. However, I don't think it's unreasonable, in the European context, to see Christianity as the 'default position', since you mention it. It's part of the European wallpaper, just as religion and culture are intimately bound together in other regions of the world.

Posie - "Can the future be known and if it can does man have free will?"

I remember talking about this in middle school. That will be about age 13.

That must have been a very facile "philosophy of religion" study that you did. And now I understand a bit better how you know so little about Islam despite claiming to have a diploma on religious studies.