War and Peace Readalong thread 2022 - thread 2

[VikingNorthUtsire]

"The finest novel ever written on this planet"
"Here is a novel that is worth whatever time one gives to it. There is more life between its cover than in any other existent fictional narrative"

This is a really helpful blog post by someone who has done the challenge: nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/announcing-the-2020-war-and-peace-chapter-a-day-read-along

1. Translations

The main complication seems to be which edition to choose. The blog post above contains some commentary of the different tranlsations that are available and their merits. There's also a pretty comprehensive guide here including samples from some of the best-known translations: welovetranslations.com/2021/08/31/whats-the-best-translation-of-war-and-peace-by-tolstoy/

The main differences that I can see are:

• some editions (including the free download on Project Gutenburg) have a different chapter structure. I think/hope we would manage to find one another if some are reading versions with more or fewer chapters but I have based the readalong on the versions with 361 chapters.
• there's quite a lot of French in at least some parts of the book. Some editions translate it into English, others keep it in French but use footnotes
• some translators have chosen to anglicise the characters' names. I guess its personal preference whether you prefer Mary, Andrew and Basil or a more Russian version.

Looking at the editions recommended and reviewed in the above blog:

The Vintage Classics edition, translated by Pevear and Volokhonsky: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classics-Tolstoy/dp/0099512246/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

NB also this link for the kindle version: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Vintage-Classic-Russians-ebook/dp/B005CUS9AG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Signet Classics edition, translated by Anne Dunnigan: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Signet-Classics-Tolstoy-ebook/dp/B001RWQVXA/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The Penguin Classics edition, translated by Anthony Briggs: www.amazon.co.uk/War-Peace-Penguin-Popular-Classics-ebook/dp/B0033805UG/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

As a general rule I would definitely recommend downloading a sample of any kindle edition before buying, so you can be sure that you are happy with it.

Obviously, some people will prefer to avoid Amazon! Feel free to use the weeks in the run-up to Day 1 to share any tips on what you are buying and where from. Can I suggest though that we stick where possible to the editions with 361 chapters otherwise we will all get very confused!

1. Reading timeline

Nick, of the blog post, has very helpfully done the calculations for which chapters fall on which days, except he did it in 2020 which was a Leap Year. So feel free to take a look at nicksenger.com/onecatholiclife/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Nicks-2020-War-and-Peace-Chapter-a-Day-Reading-Schedule.pdf but see below the schedule for the Mumsnet Readalong.

Again, different editions name and number their chapters differently - some refer to four books divided into parts (as below), others refer to fifteen books although it's essentially the same structure just with different numbering. Hopefully there's enough info below to keep us all in sync, and always happy to let anyone know via PM what's happening in today's chapter so we can keep together.

Book 1: 1805
Book 1 Part One (25 chapters): 1/1 - 25/1
Book 1 Part Two (21 chapters): 26/1 - 15/2
Book 1 Part Three (19 chapters): 16/2 - 6/3
DAY OFF: 7/3
Book 2: 1806-1812
Book 2 Part One (16 chapters): 8/3 - 23/3
Book 2 Part Two (21 chapters): 24/3 - 13/4
Book 2 Part Three (26 chapters): 14/4 - 9/5
Book 2 Part Four (13 chapters): 10/5 - 22/5
Book 2 Part Five (22 chapters): 23/5 - 13/6
DAY OFF: 14/6
Book 3: 1812
Book Three Part One (23 chapters): 15/6 - 7/7
Book Three Part Two (39 chapters): 8/7 - 15/8
Book Three Part Three (34 chapters): 16/8 - 18/9
DAY OFF: 19/9
Book 4: 1812-13
Book Four Part One (16 chapters): 20/9 - 5/10
Book Four Part Two (19 chapters): 6/10 - 24/10
Book Four Part Three (19 chapters): 25/10 - 12/11
Book Four Part Four (20 chapters): 13/11 - 2/12
DAY OFF: 3/12
Epilogue One 1812-20 (16 chapters): 3/12 - 19/12
Epilogue Two (12 chapters): 20/12 - 31/12

Phew!

I would suggest that we meet at the end of each section (so 17 times over the course of the year) to discuss what we've read, but with (non-spoilerish) chatter welcome at any time in between. According to my guru, Nick, each chapter is around 4 pages long, so it should be do-able.

1. Chapter "meditations"

This looks like another really interesting blog post from someone who has done it, with thoughts and meditations on each chapter: brianedenton.medium.com/a-year-of-war-and-peace-cc66540d9619#.yabefbbgz

Come and join me! This time next year we will almost have finished reading the finest novel ever written on the planet.

PS Some may feel that each day off deserves a shot of vodka or two. I couldn't possibly comment.

I'm finding it hard not to read it with a 21st century lens. My sympathies were very much with Pierre and even the duel seemed to make sense in the context of those times - until we got to today's chapter, where I definitely read it that Helene hadn't had an affair. Then he seemed like a weak and jealous man resorting to violence rather than take any responsibility for the relationship he is in. But she is awful too - I hadn't thought about her being manipulative, but I think that's right, she definitely got what she wanted from the end of the marriage.

The hints about the incestuous relationship are just ick and feel a bit unnecessary/prurient, but I wonder if they are to show that the Kuragin's are beyond the pale? Reading for the first time so have no idea what is significant and what isn't!

Also - I was underwhelmed by the shock revelation of Dolokov's softer side at the end of the duel chapter. Lots of total bastards love their mothers.

I think there is a lot of interesting stuff going on, but it would be a little duller without Dolokhov.

I’m not sure Pierre is jealous per se, at least not in the basic sense of suspicion. He is suspicious because people are talking openly about it and because Dolokhov himself goaded him. Of course, that doesn’t mean it is true and if she hadn’t confronted him I do not believe that he would have said anything to her at all. The first time I read it I read it as true, but I’d also seen the series beforehand which definitely (predictably) went with yes, quite explicitly.

I'm also unconvinced Helene had an affair but also agree that she is probably devious enough to not only have one but lie about it.. particularly as there was a part in today's chapter that sort of implied that Pierre and Helene aren't exactly acting like newlyweds... its certainly not the first time he's avoided their bedroom apparently. He even says
"Time after time, I've thought about her personality and told myself it was my fault for not understanding her, not understanding that perpetual composure and complacency, the lack of any yearning or desire, and it all comes down to one dreadful word - immorality"

I'm really enjoying the comparison of translations. I'm reading Briggs and it seems very much in today's language whereas the Pevear and Volokhonsky translation you posted, BakeOff, seems far more like the time of writing... I think I'd quite like that, even if it does sometimes cause confusion.

Interesting discuss, I thought Tolstoy is implying Hélène did have an affair, not so much by Hélène's actions (although her actions would suggest she's fully capable of an affair, and we know she has no regard for Pierre) as by Dolokhov's. The whole toast 'to pretty women and their lovers' schtick and taking what is Pierre's (the music score) to show he can.
Also if it's gossip all over Moscow what are the reasons for that? What have people seen or heard 'off camera' that we're not party to.
Although I admit I was swayed by having seen the series, which as StColombo points out goes all out AFFAIR, with some very racy scenes, although to be fair it's not clear if that's in Pierre's head or in reality.

*discussion

There’s a footnote in my copy to say that in early drafts of the novel Helène and her brother Anatole had been in ‘guilty relations’ with each other but this was almost all edited out.

Very interesting Cornishblues!

BakeOff I like your point about how Nicolas is so suave with Sonya in comparison to Pierre who is so clumsy about managing his love life.

In general I'm team Pierre because I like his lack of worldliness, but I felt like both he and Helene came off very badly in this chapter. She married him for his money and has no respect for him whatsoever. On the other hand, he rants about her being a 'depraved woman' on the basis of what still seems like hearsay rather than concrete evidence (your visits to prostitutes were different, right Pierre?!), and then, in his complete inability to articulate his feelings, he resorts to violence.

Which TV series have people watched? There seem to be nearly as many DVD versions as translations. I'm very tempted to do what someone else suggested and watch as far as I've read but not sure I'd have the discipline to stop there. I'm battling the urge to read ahead as it is.

It’s the most recent BBC adaptation that I think is mostly being referred to, with Paul
Dano, James Norton.

I agree @BishyBarnyBee I wasn’t impressed by the revelation of Dolokhov’s love for his old mother and sister: he’s probably got a Madonna/whore attitude to women. I assumed the affair was real: Dolokhov and Hélène both seem like people who wouldn’t hold back if that’s what they wanted, and they were living in the same house.

Ooooh Bishy, as Colombo says, it's the latest BBC adaptation with Paul Dano as Pierre. It is wonderful, and what made me decide to read the book. So good though that it would be difficult to eke it out as we are doing the book!

Yes I didn’t think Dolokhov’s “love” for his dear ma exonerated him. I imagine that love was controlling and good treatment conditional on her (and his sister) living up to the glory of the role in their behaviour and wants. I know men like that, who say they love and adore women… as long as they behave. Then they get a beating, much like Pierre doles out because Helene made him with her depravity, doncha kno.

I’m trying to think of the book which characterises such a relationship. In it a widow, spends all day braiding her hair in complex patterns and her adult clerical (as in clergy) son does not let her out the house. She married up but remembers her working class (farmer?) sweetheart she refused who is still interested and proposes again. Son beats her up. I read it in secondary school, collection of short stories. I want to say D.H. Lawrence but can’t find anything like it in my Googling.

Total Sunday detail sorry. Toddler having a super long nap again!

Perhaps it doesn't matter whether Pierre / Helene actually had an affaire or not? Helene married him for his money, and (from what we know so far) has achieved exactly what she set out to do. (Compare and contrast with Charlotte Lucas who also married a similarly awkward / socially incompetent man for his money and made the best of the deal in any ways she could.)
I can't feel that sorry for Pierre, who is still presumably much better off than before he inherited, even if he's made over more than half of his wealth to Helene. He certainly doesn't feel like that much of a deserving cause to me.

Volume 2 Part I
Chapter 7

Meanwhile back at the ranch….
It’s been two months since the defeat at Austerlitz and no news has reached Bald Hills as to whether Prince Andrei is alive or dead. He’s not listed as a prisoner of war but he’s not listed among the dead either.

Following a letter from Kutuzov praising Andrei’s heroism in battle, but confirming he is missing in action, the old prince decides to abandon all hope and consider his son dead. Marya takes a different tack, she goes on desperately hoping Andrei is still alive, praying for his safe return and taking comfort in religiosity.
Marya resolves not to tell Princess Lise that Andrei is MIA given her delicate state, and convinces her father not to tell her either until after the birth.
(The little Princess is described as ‘generally unobservant’ although you would think that the fact that Marya keeps weeping all over her would give Lise a bit of a clue that all is not right with the world 🤷‍♀️)

Wow, the last couple of chapters have been a roller coaster all right! I agree that neither Pierre nor Helene comes out of it well (although I'm sure Tolstoy intends our sympathy to be with Pierre rather than Helene).

I had wondered how the Bolkonsky's were faring with the insecurity of Andrey's status and, what a surprise, not particularly healthily! I liked that Kutuzov wrote to the old Count - he seemed like the only general who knew what was what at Austerlitz too so I get a little cross when I hear people denigrating him, especially those like Shinshin who weren't even there!! Aaaaanyways...

Poor Marya although can sort of see her point in not telling the Squirrel, as you've pointed out Desdemona, how on earth has she not twigged? As well as Marya's copious weeping, the ole Count sounds in a worse state than usual too (although she seems to avoid him for the most part so perhaps that's less of an issue?)

I was surprised to see she's still pregnant as was sure she was close to term when they moved there originally although she's days away now apparently..

I guess Andrey may not have joined up at once (sorry, it may well be covered at the start of the book but I have a little kitten on my lap so can't possibly go check!!) so whilst feasible, she's still been 'heavily' pregnant a very long time. Another example of Tolstoy's ignorance of women, perhaps?

I don’t know much about his life, but apparently he married in 1862 and had 13 children (and also had an illegitimate child with a serf, pre-marriage), so Tolstoy should have known the facts of life. Poetic licence?? Is Lise so tiny - she’s always referred to as ‘little’ - that she shows very early??

I didn't quite understand the joy and beauty of Marya's sorrow. She is "transformed with a heavenly joy" that drowns the sorrow within her.

I'd assumed it was her religious faith sustaining her but then she talks about weeping together with her father and wonders if Andrey is in the realm of eternal peace and happiness.

Is she just so damned pure that her sorrow is beautiful in its own right? We are clearly meant to think that she is in a different class to all the other worldly, silly, irrelevant or immoral women Tolstoy describes.

But even with his very obvious limitations in writing his female characters, I don't feel he's misogynistic, and I suspect he's quite pro women for a man of that time. Lots of his women have agency and they are not on average any sillier or more unpleasant than his men!

Little Princess Lise does seem to have the gestation period of an elephant, she was obviously pregnant and 'waddling' at Anna Pavlovna's soirée (at the beginning of the book) we are told that was a few weeks after 11th April, Austerlitz happened 2nd December and Andrei has been MIA a couple of weeks so we're now mid December. Better get that doctor up from Moscow!

Correction Andrei has been MIA two months not two weeks!! It's a (post) Christmas miracle

Whoop.... Andrey is home

I finally checked and the first chapter opens in July of 1805 and the last chapter clearly states March 1806... so Lyse was waddling for 8 months? I mean, the timings work but she must have been showing ridiculously early, telling everyone even earlier (we mostly wait until 12 weeks even now and our maternal health support has improved dramatically) and have absolutely no core! Poor girl...

You can waddle without a bump. It's something to do with softening ligaments in pregnancy. I waddled early! Confession : I read on to the next chapter! 🤐

Volume 2 Part I
Chapter 8

It’s March 19th 1806, Lise goes into labour. Which must be something of a relief to everyone around her as she’s been pregnant for well over a year now, which must be being hailed as a miracle, or at the least attracting some medical curiosity.

Lise asks her sister in law to fetch the Midwife, Marya Bogdanovna.
Marya agrees to fetch Marya.(Names Tolstoy, Names! 🙄) luckily the midwife is already in attendance (maybe she’s been hanging around for 3 months on the off chance) and the doctor has been called for.

Everyone in the house is very tense, as well they might be with this monster baby to deliver.
There’s a very sweet scene where faithful servant Tikhon enters his masters room on the pretext of checking his candles and seeing his worried face simply kisses him on the shoulder and leaves the room ‘without touching the candles or saying why he had come.’

Time passes slowly, it’s a bitterly cold night there is no news from the delivery room, good or bad, and everyone in the house is willing the German doctor to arrive from Moscow.

Finally a carriage approaches, Marya thanks God and rushes out to meet the doctor. Except the voice she hears seems familiar, and she realises it isn’t the doctor at all, but Andrei, (Proving once again the literary trope that if you don’t see a body they ‘ain’t dead) pale, thin and worried but ‘in a strange way gentler’.
Luckily the doctor is bringing up the rear and Andrei embraces his sister, his ‘Dear Masha’, and sets off for his wife’s room.

Thank you Desdemona. You can really feel the tension in the air. Even Marya doesn't find solace in her prayers.
I agree, that was touching, the visit of Tikhon to his master's room and the gentle kiss on his shoulder.

I have a little kitten on my lap

Sonya? Is that you??

I will admit to a little happy heartskip when Andrei reappeared just in time to be with his wife in childbirth (not sure whether he will actually be in the room but alive and in the house is better than MIA!). I do feel that these chapters have been really touchingly tender and human.

Volume 2 Part I
Chapter 9

Things are not looking good for the perpetually pregnant chipmunk. Andrei is caring and loving, calling her, “My little darling”, which he never has before, but she seems anxious and afraid, not sure what is going on or why she is in so much pain. She’s definitely in a bad way and even bringing in the medical big guns from Moscow is not helping.

Turns out Lise was right to be terrified of child birth because she, like many women of the time, doesn’t survive it. The only saving grace is that she gives birth to a perfectly healthy little boy who they call …. Nikolay.(Names Tolstoy, names 🙄)

Andrei takes solace in the arms of his usually gruff father, who holds him in a vice like grip and cries like a baby.

Even in death Lise seems to look at Andrei (and his father) reproachfully and he feels guilty for his past treatment of her.

Five days after Lise’s funeral the family christen Nikolay, a strand of the babies hair stuck into wax floats when dropped into the font, apparently a sign of good luck.